Internet Marketing on Life Support

by Ryan M. Healy

in Business, Case Studies, Ethics, Internet Marketing

Are Internet marketing “gurus” just a den of thieves? And is Internet marketing itself now on life support as a result of their unethical business practices?

The reason I ask these questions is because recent events have forced me to ask them.

Internet marketing “gurus” are being called out left and right, new advertising rules are going into effect, people’s merchant accounts are being terminated without notice — it’s probably the biggest shake-up to hit Internet marketing since the first big “Google slap.”

Let’s take a look at some of the “recent events” I’m talking about:

Event #1: Perry Belcher “Retires”

Here’s the short version: Perry Belcher sold fraudulent health supplements through his company called Selmedica. When it was discovered he was committing fraud, authorities seized Belcher’s assets, auctioned off his home, cars, and other possessions, and gave him a 10-year probation.

In what appears to be an attempt to side-step the terms of his probation, Belcher partnered with Ryan Deiss to promote products on the Internet again. “Get Money from Google,” “Social Media Blueprint,” and other programs followed.

But after much dogged persistence by Salty Droid, Perry Belcher pulled the plug on all his online businesses, deleted his Twitter account, and announced his “retirement” from Internet marketing. (Or, more accurately, forced retirement.)

Event #2: Eric Graham Fails to Deliver

Eric Graham and Ryan HealyEric Graham is known as the Conversion Doctor. He helps people improve the conversion rates of their web sites. In the past, I’ve been impressed with Eric, and even went to an event in Denver specifically to meet him. (That’s where I got the picture at right.)

Anyway, I was surprised to learn that over the last year or two that Eric has continued to make big promises, but — according to the testimony of multiple customers — has not delivered fully on those promises. Worse, he has denied refunds and not honored his own guarantee, which he features prominently in his sales process.

I wouldn’t even have been aware of these issues had not Fred Black written in detail about his own unsatisfactory experiences with Eric Graham. I respect Fred and his work, so I take this issue fairly seriously.

Turns out, Fred is not the only one who’s spoken out against Eric Graham. There seems to be a pattern of negligence. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.”

Event #3: StomperNet Descends into Chaos

Ken McCarthy (an Internet marketer who has my utmost respect, by the way) introduced Brad Fallon to the Internet marketing community back when I still had a job.

I bought the first “Stomping the Search Engines” program, listened to it in my car, and used what I had learned to build a site that’s been cranking out $20 to $70 a month for more than five years now. The methods described in the program worked for me, so I thought highly of Brad — at first.

Well, Brad went on to partner with Andy Jenkins and formed StomperNet. They did a big launch, claimed to make millions — and from the outside, everything looked peachy.

Here’s what I found interesting: With the exception of giving Brad Fallon his initial credibility, I don’t think Ken McCarthy ever promoted him again. I had always wondered why.

Now I don’t wonder so much.

Andy Jenkins (no saint himself) ended up suing Brad Fallon. They haven’t paid affiliates from the first StomperNet launch. And now Brad has sued his own wife (Jennifer Fallon) over ownership of their wedding favors business. (Oh, they’re getting divorced, too. No surprise there I guess.)

And just so you know I’m not making this stuff up, you can read all about the StomperNet shenanigans on Salty Droid, links to legal docs included. (Warning: Strong language.)

Event #4: New FTC Rules Go into Effect

On December 1, 2009, new FTC rules went into effect. As you may know, these new rules were a backlash caused by “flogs” — fake blogs — being created and multiplied by certain Internet marketers.

The new rules say that if you feature testimonials that include specific results, then you must also prominently describe what “typical” results are. Disclaimers like “Results not typical” are no longer sufficient.

For an in-depth review of the rules, what they mean, and how you should respond, I recommend listening to the Easy FTC Compliance Seminar posted on Robert Skrob’s blog. (There’s also a handy PDF download in case you prefer to read.)

Event #5: Visa & MasterCard Crack Down on Merchants

On January 14, 2010, I received notification from PowerPay (my merchant account provider) that Visa and MasterCard is cracking down on what they consider “brand damaging” business practices.

Behind the scenes, Visa and MasterCard provided merchant account providers with a master list of “worst offenders.” Merchant account providers were told to immediately terminate the merchant accounts of these worst offenders — or face $100,000 fines per infraction.

As you can imagine, faced with $100,000 fines, merchant account providers acted swiftly. And a client notified me on January 16 that the merchant accounts of four major Internet marketers had been terminated. (It’s probably no surprise that three of the four have been targeted by Salty Droid.)

What Does It All Mean?

First of all, let me say that I think there are many Internet marketers who’ve crossed the line and should not be followed, supported, or endorsed. Enough is enough.

Let me also say that I believe there are many ethical Internet marketers who deliver fair value for a fair price — and do not engage in high-pressure sales, deceptive marketing methods, or the outright fraud I’m now aware of.

What this means is this:

  • You must choose your mentors and teachers in the online space wisely.
  • You must be especially wary of outrageous, hyped-up claims. (If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.)
  • When possible, you should get a second opinion from someone you trust when you’re tempted to spend a large sum of money for an event, coaching program, home study course, etc.
  • And, possibly most important of all, you must protect your reputation. Because, in the end, your reputation is the most valuable asset you have.

Internet marketing is not going away. The Internet will continue to be a marketing medium. But how that medium is used will most definitely change — possibly more dramatically this year than ever before.

Ultimately, I don’t think there’s any reason to panic. But you should certainly be proactive about complying with the new rules and making sure you’re dealing with reputable online business owners. (This advice is as much for me as it is for you.)

Really, it all boils down to these three things:

  1. Guard your mind.
  2. Guard your wallet.
  3. Guard your reputation.

Simple, for sure. But as most principles go: easier said than done.

-Ryan M. Healy

P.S. So far, my 4th business prediction for 2010 — “The End of the Internet Marketing Guru as We Know Him — is happening a LOT faster than I expected.

P.P.S. Would love to get your comments on this post. Were you already aware of these issues? How do YOU think all these changes and revelations will affect Internet marketing?

P.P.P.S. In case you are interested, here are the new merchant account terms as spelled out by Jud Smith of PowerPay:

PowerPay cannot accept merchant applications for products and/or services employing “Negative Option” enrollment, in addition to the following practices:

Marketing models that employ “Free-Trial”, “Deferred Billing” and/or “Shipping Only”.  Customers must be receiving a tangible good or contracted service in exchange for charging of payment cards.  Incentivized discount offers are acceptable when the cardholder is receiving something in exchange for payment, however we will be unable to support accounts engaging in hidden or delayed charges and ‘free’ offers that are not truly free.

“Cross-Selling” and “Up-selling” business practices.  All sales should be directly between the business entities (merchant) processing the transaction and the cardholder, with cardholder authorization for all purchases.

Per Payment Brand guidelines, the use of multiple merchant accounts, billing descriptors and merchant processors may be viewed as an attempt to avoid chargeback monitoring programs and is prohibited.  Perceived non-compliance has led to termination of processing relationships.  PowerPay will review the business consideration for opening multiple merchant accounts to ensure compliance with Payment Brand guidelines.

Transactions generated from internet traffic and all other lead sources must be managed and monitored for potential fraud using an approved system.  Third Party service engagement may be a requirement for account approval.

The FTC has recently published guidelines regarding “Negative Option” enrollment programs and is taking a very aggressive position against merchants utilizing/employing this business practice.  Recommendations take in part from the FTC’s website may include but are not limited to the following:

Material terms should be disclosed in a clear, concise manner.  Unnecessarily long or inconsistent terms are viewed as an attempt to mislead the consumer.

Terms should be disclosed in a conspicuous manner, clearly placed and labeled on websites in a location that indicates the importance and relevance to the transaction.  Fonts and colors must be easy to view.

Material terms must be disclosed prior to completion of the transaction and before a financial obligation is incurred by the consumer.

Customers must provide affirmative consent to any offer, examples include a mandatory “I Agree…” statement checkbox, where the customer is acknowledging the Terms and Conditions of the offer and consents to be entered into continuity program as a result of completing the transaction.  Pre-checked boxes do not qualify as affirmative consent.

Merchants must not discourage or make difficult in any way the disclosed cancellation procedures and all cancellation requests must be honored in accordance with the stated terms of the transaction.

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  • Ryan,

    Thanks for this... good stuff. Much more intake to do but had to say, "Why is it the scamsters always seem to go after nutritional supplements market?"

    Because they can't do pharms, I guess.

    Well, I just wanted to share that the unbelievable never ends.... you'll be sickened to know that Selmedica supplements are STILL available and IN STOCK on amazon! What's the deal? Known crap can't get taken off the market? Insane!

    http://www.amazon.com/Equitab-Vertisil-Vertigo-...

    Something is broken!

    In Strength,
    Shawn
  • Strange. Could be a distributor still has/had Selmedica products in stock...? Just a guess.
  • vamskills
    Ryan, Iam so glad I found your blog. After reading this particular article I was so glad I didn't have too much money to have spent uselessly to these scumbugs. Yes in the two years that I have started my IM education, I have spent thousands of dollars in home study courses, coaching via memberships of these gurus sites, yet I have not been profitable in IM. This is despite the fact that I come from being an IT Professional for 25 years in an auto company. The money I have spent though not in the tens of thousands still blood money for me. That's why when a guru says you don't have to know anything about computers or coding to hype their product is I know a lie unless you have tons of money for capital to get your own developers. Even with that you as the business owner have to dictate to the developer what your needs are. How are you going to articulate that if you yourself don't understand at all.
    Anyway thank you for this blog with this I am going back to the drawing board by stopping to be oversold on a particular product. I refuse to pay anymore dime for hype. I have all the ebooks that I need to re work my business and course of actions I should take.
    Please keep doing what you are doing to save us from these scumbugs. Also in naming names who are bad apples, tell us also who we can trust.
    You Ryan is now one of the IM guru I trust. I will be one of your ardent customers.
  • I found my way here from a comment on Rich Schefren's blog today. Even scanned through all the comments and downloaded internetmarketingsins.com content. All of this has been very educational, especially since I am setting up some internet based businesses and don't want to go down the wrong path. Thanks.
  • Renee
    Ryan I think your article helped a lot of people. However my philosophy is
    to stay clear of any internet offer with long sales letters, hype and high prices. Online colleges like NAIT offer classes in promoting your website. Business coaching sites and web design sites even offer free advice. Yes, it is more conservative. They don't promise you a million dollars overnight. But if you work their methods, their methods will work for you. When something sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't. So perhaps articles like yours will give a wake up call. Thanks Renee
  • One "savvy" IM Guru even put all those FTC rules into an eBook and used a scare tactic sales letter to try to sell it ("if you're an Affl Mkter, you will perish this year if you don't read this. . ." As if the FTC informational rules weren't all over the place!
  • Hi Sharon. I'm the guy behind MindValley Labs. Do email me at vishen (at) mindvalley.com and I'll solve your situation immediately. It's not that we're not doing customer service, you just must have ordered from an old site way back in 2007. You ordered 2 years ago and then logged in after 2 years on our newer site. We changed our site platform and your login details probably changed with it. Email me, and I'll get the matter solved asap.
  • sharonvaz
    Hi Vishen, thanks for your speedy response. It is unfortunate that the only way I could see some action from MindValley Labs for such a simple matter was by posting here. I hope that you'll not get upset about this but see it as a wake up call that something is seriously wrong with your customer support process. I made a mistake in my previous message. My first support request was sent on Nov 3rd, 2009 and not Dec 7, 2009. To expect customers to wait for more than a month for an initial response is really asking for a lot. To be honest, some marriages in the US don't even last that long. If you really treasure your customers (like your Help Desk message claims), you would also make sure that when you upgrade websites, you send a courtesy email to your customers informing them of the change. I will be emailing you today to resolve this matter. Also understand that only a small percentage of angry customers take action or provide feedback. And it's the companies that dare listen to negative feedback that have an opportunity to learn more about how they are perceived by customers, as well as how they can evolve to become more credible, responsive and respected.
  • sharonvaz
    Hi Vishen, I want to thank you and acknowledge your prompt response in resolving my problem. I now have the access details that I need. The updated Chain Reaction Marketing course looks great! I'm excited to check out the new content.
  • sharonvaz
    Hi Ryan,
    Thanks for stepping out and doing this. I think that you should add MindValley Labs to your list of companies that have poor customer service. I purchased an Internet marketing course from them about two years ago and when I tried to login to the member's area on November 3, 2009, I got an error. So I contacted their support to fix this. With emails going back and forth and long gaps in between, it's now almost the end of January, 2010, and guess what? Still no access for a course that I paid almost $300 for. Isn't a Paypal receipt sufficient proof? (This course has been renamed Chain Reaction Marketing.)

    The sad part is that Paypal doesn’t protect digital products, so I guess I have to kiss the investment good bye. What baffles me is why Mind Valley Labs puts so little emphasis on customer service. After all, isn’t it less costly to sell other products to an existing customer than to acquire a new one?

    As Internet marketers, every day we have opportunities to be heroes in the eyes of our customers by helping them solve problems through compelling information products, as well as providing stellar customer service--even when giving refunds. In spite of this, I see many large, seemingly successful Internet marketing companies forsake this. It looks like customer trust is going to be one of the key attributes for the top Internet marketing enterprises in 2010.

    ~ Sharon
  • Momo
    In order to become wealthy, proper marketing education is a must. A documentary film about today successful internet marketers.''The YES Movie" made by Louis Lautman

    EDITOR'S NOTE: Spam. Link removed.
  • Momo - Please don't shill stuff or post spam on my blog. Your link has been removed.

    Ryan
  • Guest
    --Here's how a "recommended" PPC G00-Roo is covering his tracks--

    Shrewd marketers now have small-font disclaimer statements such as the following extract from Glenn Livinginston's web site:

    "GLENN LIVINGSTON'S PERSONAL SUCCESS: Glenn Livingston's personal success, and in particular the financial graph presented which represents his first 19 months in information publishing after inventing his marketing formula (which is the same period referenced in Perry Marshall's testimonial where "80% of his projects succeed out of the gate"), were due at least as much to his personal background in marketing, research, statistics, psychology, and writing as they were to the market formula itself (the marketing formula put it all together and allowed him to leverage all of the above). Furthermore, this accomplishment occurred during both an earlier economic climate AND in the context of different internet marketing opportunities (for example, a lower level of competition in Google Adwords). Accordingly, you should not expect anywhere near the same results as he achieved (or continues to achieve) personally, nor as an owner of Psy Tech Inc. The same is true for his publicity obtained. The same is true for the success of other companies he has started like RocketClicks.com (which are entirely separate legal entities from Psy Tech Inc). Glenn Livingston's corporate consulting career (responsible for the long list of Fortune 100 companies in many of Psy Tech Inc's sales pages) was done through two other corporations in which he is a 50% owner (his wife owns the other half) - The Livingston Group for Marketing, Inc., and Executive Solutions, Inc. Many, but not all clients in the aforementioned list were serviced by Glenn Livingston personally. (All were serviced by one of the latter two consulting companies)

    "ABOUT RESULTS FROM EARLIER ECONOMIC CLIMATES, INTERNET CONDITIONS, OR REQUIRING ADDITIONAL RESOURCES: Some of the results reported on certain product pages within Psy Tech Inc. websites occurred during both an earlier economic climate and/or in the context of different internet marketing opportunities (for example, a lower level of competition in Google Adwords) and resources. For example, you may find reports of individuals who profited tremendously in a single day. These would not have been possible if the individual had not aggressively developed and nurtured a VERY large email list prior to these 24 hour events. Other customers reporting profitable results could not have achieved them had these businesses not already had significant resources already in place having nothing to do with our products and/or services, nor could many of them be repeated in today's internet climate. Accordingly you should not rely solely on these testimonials when making your purchase decision. Again, reports of specific profits should be regarded as the exception, rather than the rule. Consumers who use our products can generally expect not to see any increase in sales, leads, or profits. It is entirely possible you will lose money as a result of the advice contained in our products. Clients utilizing our services can generally expect not to see any increase in sales, leads or profits. It is entirely possible you will lose money as a result of using our services."

    Please especially note in the above the following very clear statement:

    "Consumers who use our products can generally expect not to see any increase in sales, leads, or profits."

    That's not what his sales page led me to believe!

    Here's the problem: I came across the disclaimer after reading his super-enticing long-form sales letter and was reaching for my credit card. His disclaimer totally brought me back to my senses after being completely seduced by his copy!

    WOW--talk about a major buzz kill.

    What do you think of this idea? The FTC should require the checking of a box to show having read the full disclaimer of any reputable marketer BEFORE being allowed to enter a credit card number. Yes, it would kill conversion rates (witness my example) but then the sale would be a fully informed, "eyes wide open" transaction.

    --Hans
  • Hans,

    I think Glenn is being very forthcoming here. I also think his disclaimer overstates the degree of caution you need to take -- but that is what many marketers are now doing so as not to have a run-in with the FTC.

    Here are the facts:

    Every customer is unique. Every customer of an information product is going to get different results (except for those who don't do anything). The results may be better or worse than those advertised -- but they'll never be identical to those advertised.

    Even time-tested franchises produce varying degrees of success based on the franchise owner, store manager, employees, location, etc. There really is no such thing as "typical results" in business.

    Ryan
  • sbalger
    Can you be sure (Dr.) Glen isn't being tounge in cheek? I was floored by this same disclaimer while reading Glen's highly convincing sales letter.

    Then I remembered what Dan Kennedy said in an audio set I own--most customers don't USE the product! They scan over it, or read it once and NEVER apply it. Ole Dan K. even told the story of one guy buying his product after a seminar and sheepishly returning it a week later because he had an UNOPENED COPY at home on his shelf!

    I think Glen is trying to protect himself from the FTC and overqualify his customers (i.e. reduce refunds/complaints). After I got over my initial shock of how strong his disclaimer was: I LAUGHED LIKE HELL.

    If you want to see a great set of effective yet sarcastic disclaimers, check out Andy Jenkins "video gets more money" video. John Carlton sent it out.

    So Ryan--I've just found your blog last night while doing some research on Ben Settle's "Crackerjack Selling" book. I bought the book and can't wait to get it. Even better than most free bonuses--I've found your stuff! Ka-Baam!

    I'm just starting as a copywriter/marketing entrepreneur and I thank you for what I've read so far.

    All the best in 2010.

    -sb
  • SB - Your comment made my day. Thank you. :-)
  • dhudiburg
    I agree Ryan. Many tactics and strategies can be super powerful if one takes the time to do the right things, has a good business foundation, leverages his or her experience, and applies them at the right time. Most people won't, or can't do all of those things, so a super frank super cautious disclaimer is just smart. There is a *context* for everything and it always affects the outcome, I find it very interesting, from a copywriting standpoint, how Glenn crafts his disclaimer message.

    I don't know Glenn or his products, but it is entirely possible that he gets *better* long term results by filtering out certain people who are pre-disposed to expect overnight results without work and building a very strong context.

    If, for instance, Lance Armstrong sold you a peak performance cycling course on DVD and used the full emotion and passion he has for his techniques and the results they have brought him, would you really expect to get exactly the same results?

    Would you fault him then, for stating in the fine print that he is very likely different than you and, very likely, would get much different results?
  • Ryan,

    I was just made aware of this very important post by a fellow colleague, Matt Gallant.

    Like others I want to applaud and acknowledge you for stepping up and speaking out.

    Obviously, by the number of tweets and comments and a "who's who" of internet marketers that replied, you have hit a nerve. And with good reason.

    And frankly, I'm glad you named names. I realize, that it's a personal preference in doing so as Michel and Sylvie Fortin expressed. It's also true that if we want to hold ourselves and others accountable in our industry, being specific and transparent is essential.

    It's also important that the good, legitimate, high integrity marketers (and there are many) don't get painted with the same brush as those who are scammers at worst or at the least, selling inferior (or out of date material) just because they can.

    My hope is your post has given others the courage to speak out. Not to get into a pissing match, but to evoke real change or at least a wake-up call.

    I for one have grown disenchanted with much of what I see from Internet marketing because it has descended into a pile of biz opp crap. The good news on that front is hopefully some of the reinforced FTC regs which will limit those outlandish claims.

    And you hit it on the head with those talking about million dollar paydays but fail to disclose half of that GROSS amount often goes to affiliates, and another 10-20% to operations and covering refunds.

    Thanks again, not only for your initial post, but the level-headed feedback in your replies to the comments, especially when dealing with people's livelihoods and professional reputations.

    Marc
  • Unfortunately Marc we sometimes HAVE to paint with a broad brush... it sometimes makes it inevitable...

    Why?

    Because while a marketer may themselves run a clean business you also have to look at who they associate themselves with... the old cliched adage of "when you lie with dogs you wake with fleas" lends itself heavily here... people tend to judge us by those we surround ourselves with... so, even if you're clean but promote, hang with, associate, attend events with (as in speaking at events live or not), we see tend to see you as one of "them"...

    Primary are those that point fingers at others who are "bad," saying "shame on them," but then associate with those who are doing many of the things they are castigating them for... you can't have it both ways...

    My view on a lot of this is you have to see it as pure black & white, with little or no shades of gray... either you are clean and separate yourself directly from the scum in this biz and have nothing to do with the at all or you condone what they do and will be considered as part of that group...

    This is why I believe that marketers need to know where the skeletons are, need to keep an ear to the ground to hear the gossip & scuttlebutt -- it gives you insight on those that are problematic and whom you want to stay away from, especially if you are working on maintaining a clean business... when you know what's going on behind the scenes, what games they are playing, the crap they are putting out, the abuses that are taking place, etc., then you can steer clear so as to not "infect" your own business and reputation...

    Long ago my grandmother shared with me this -- "Protect your reputation... it takes a long time to build, can be wiped out in a moment and is almost always impossible to get back... it is your life currency and you want to be careful where you spend it" -- powerful words to heed when you're in business and especially in marketing... something many gamble with in the hopes of a big payday...

    Tony
  • Tony,

    Thanks for your additional insights. And I agree. To clarify, when I said "paint with the same brush" I meant that it's unfortunate that good, high integrity marketers can often get swept away amongst the flotsam and jetsam of of questionable integrity marketers .

    Let's face it, it's easy for perception to become reality. So you are right in saying that for those of us fighting the good fight, we must remain vigilant and transparent.

    And considering there is a growing business in "reputation management" I expect the marketing dynamics Ryan has spotlighted here to only become a more extensive conversation in the future.

    Marc
  • Thanks much, Marc, for contributing here. You said:

    "It's also important that the good, legitimate, high integrity marketers (and there are many) don't get painted with the same brush as those who are scammers."

    I agree. It's too easy to generalize an industry based on a few outstanding cases. By self-policing and being more transparent maybe we can help prevent that from happening.

    Ryan
  • First time at your blog, and a very insightful read. Your pretty much spot on, I started internet marketing back in 07, and as a newbie I was chasing every shining object, signed up to every newsletter, buying every product that I could. It was all BS! But a blessing in disguise.

    For all the newbies, take heed, there is no overnight, money making, magic bullet. If you want to be successful at online marketing your gonna have to buckle down learn the basics and stay CONSISTENT at what your doing. Find out what works, test, if it doesn't, scrap it and move on. Ryan is right , choose your mentors and teachers wisely, I know it's hard, cause for every one that is honest and straight up there are 10+ mo fo's out there that just want to take your money without giving anything in return.

    Learn the BASICS, use COMMON SENSE, stay CONSISTENT, continue to EDUCATE yourself and you'll be fine. It worked for me, I had to sort through all the BS but after I did, you know what, it all became simple and clear. Is making money online easy, no and yes. Once you get it though, it's a beautiful thing.

    Best of luck to everyone and their endeavors.

    Peace, Prosperity & Internet Marketing
  • John
    You also forgot "event #6: Google drops a nuclear bomb and PERMANENTLY bans hundreds of thousands of people from ever doing business with them again in this lifetime."
  • The real culprits
    Event's #4 and #5 - Well you have the CPA networks and their affiliates to thank for those (and for any collateral damage to those selling online in an ethical manner). The whole CPA industry is a mess- from their scammy clients (with their deceptive teeth whitening, acai and Google Kit free trial hidden continuity 'offers') to their affiliates (the ones behind all the flogs/fake blogs full of lies) and the CPA networks sit in the middle raking in the money from both sides and turning a blind eye to the shady goings on of their affiliates and their clients. The CPA industry is the real den of thieves.

    Good on you for naming and shaming internet marketing 'gurus' - but outside of the 'internet marketing' industry few people have heard of these gurus 'grab u rob u scumbags' but plenty more people have heard about (or been caught out by) the acai/teeth whitening/Google work at home scams etc - hence the response: legal action from Oprah and Google, the FTC crackdown, Visa and Mastercard actions etc. But by targetting Pacific Webworks, Just Think Media and the other scammers they are ignoring the other 2 key parts of the scam and fraud triangle - the 'ethically challenged' CPA networks and their even more 'ethically challenged' affiliates.
  • Mom used to say "...money is the root of all evil...". Well only when it becomes 'Your God'!
  • Ryan, I want to give you kudos for outing these guys. I've always said "your reputation for integrity is your most valuable business asset" and it's nice to see that message being reinforced.

    I was around when some of the biggest current-day goo-roos were just starting out... and I watched their rise from the inside (many times I spoke alongside them at events).

    Early on, I realized I didn't belong in their circle... and not just because I was missing that essential organ below the waist that seemed to be a prerequisite for being part of their "incrowd."

    I've shared this story with a few of my closest buds... and now, it's time to go public:

    Back in 2001 or 2002, I was a speaker at a large event featuring some of the more well known internet marketers (I won't name names but, over time, I've found 99% of the well known ones out there share this mindset). They were sharing stories about the crappy stuff they were selling at top dollar to the "rubes" ... and how, if the rubes were stupid enough to buy that junk, then they deserved to be swindled.

    Needless to say, I didn't find that funny at all. That was the defining moment when I started to separate myself from the others... realizing that we had very different ethics. I've always said "I want to make money WITH other people, not OFF of other people"... and I'll stick to that motto to my dying day.

    Another thing I've noticed is... a lot of these guys sell products teaching you how to do something (1) they've never done before in their life, but sounds good in theory , OR (2) they've been making money at, but things are about to stop working, so they want to eke every bit of profit out of it they can before it goes defunct.

    Now, I love learning new things, but I want to know that the person teaching me is making money doing it themselves, and that it is something that is going to continue working for a couple years at least.

    Anyhoo, in closing, I want to say there ARE a few good ones out there... people like Ken McCarthy, for whom I have the utmost respect (who, by the way, has been shunned for years by the inside-crowd goo-roos because he won't play their unethical games). And, I want to send thanks to Salty Droid and people like you, Ryan, who are shining the light on the so-called goo-roos who put profits in front of ethics. It's about time!
  • Holly -

    Thanks for contributing here and sharing your story. There does seem to be a very high percentage of men vs. women in the "guru" circle, doesn't it?

    Side note: I'm not sure if Les was replying to you or me... and I'm not even sure what he's trying to say. I do appreciate your comment and thought it was relevant to the conversation. So thank you!

    Ryan
  • Les
    Pot meet kettle.

    I laughed through your post. It's very humorous. Comedy suits you.
  • Holly Cotter
    So Les, are you calling me the "pot" or the "kettle?" Care to explain why.
  • I have always been somewhat skeptical about who I learn from, and am lucky to be learning from some people who have literally created great products and have always promoted ethics.

    I personally dont believe the notion that the Internet Marketing guru will die in 2010, they will be around for some time, I just think that the idea of making a living online through affiliate marketing, or even selling your own product, will just be made much harder.

    Whether or not this limits the number of those who are out there marketing anything and everything, who knows, only time will tell. More than anything, I think that 2010 will be the year that the "honest" internet marketer will take their stand, if anything.

    Great post by the way, thoroughly enjoyed the read!
  • chrisinprague
    What the 'gurus' call 'forced continuity' is unethical at best and theft at worst! Anyone who uses such practices should be named and shamed.
  • carlon
    Ryan,

    I nice post. I followed your discussion and Michel Fortin's reaction to it. Some people think it's unethical to name names, but I don't. I thought the issue strikes at the heart of the human condition. The fact that you named names says something. Even though my blog is not about internet marketing, I think the naming-names issue is important for everyone. So, I posted on this. Feel free to read my post on naming names, which I linked.
  • KonaGirl
    WOW! This has been some ride reading all of this when I really have better things to do! Ryan, thank you so much for the exposing these lower than pond scum marketers. You have gained another fan! It is about time that these scum bags are being exposed for what they are. Fortunately, I haven't been taken in by any of them, but it is always good to have the information filed to warn others that are planing to be taken to the cleaners.

    Perhaps with the FTC rulings, more and more of these sorts will crumble to the wayside or be smart enough to go into "instant retirement".

    Thanks again for the great service you have provided here!

    Aloha,
    June
  • VA
    I have been unsubscribing to all emails from these so called guru's recently.
    A lot less noise now in my inbox, and not tempted by these get rich offers.

    Hope everyone else starts doing the same.
  • JB
    When Perry Belcher first joined Ryan Deiss, I wrote to him and several other marketers as to who Perry really was and the answer most often given was " If he is working with Ryan, he must be OK!" What a joke! All you had to do was google his name and see he was a farce! Thanks Mr. Healy for all you do!
  • Great post Ryan, and so well written. I followed the link to this post from Michel Fortin's blog and subscribed to your Twitter account too.

    I respect the fact that you named a few Guru's, and that the revelations of yours were well researched. It is so much more convinient to not name anyone due to business interests, or some other reasons. Controversial topics always get plenty of attention as you've seen with the number of comments on this post of yours, so - when your blog becomes boring in your eyes - you know how to stir the pot again ;) Have a great weekend!
  • It is with a smile of pleasure I see widely known Internet marketers acknowledging some of the ethical issues in the field. And taking a stand.

    It has been my experience that prevention and recognition of wrongness are harder sells than goals and recognition of rightness. It's a long time since Sylvie Fortin's Internet Marketing Sins report was first published.

    Momentum for change is finally building within the industry and changes are being enforced by government commission and financial industries.

    Perhaps, after the shakeup, we'll have a year or more of little deception in sales.
  • Internet marketing is success key for any business no one can understand how does it works actually...Internet marketing is a great method to get success in a right way..It's great post over marketing tips that's most informative as well done a great deed thanks..
  • Thanks for a provocative piece with real meat to it.

    I have to say about internet marketing that I'm so over squeeze pages with all their super hype, umpteen bonuses, countless testimonials, impending immovable deadline for purchasing, and images of checks with tens of thousands of dollars that came in within the last 30 days. If I ever sign up for the freebies they tease with it's always with a throwaway email address since I'm so leery of the person on the other end - who typically starts emailing you every other day.

    If this type of internet marketing takes a header in 2010 I'll jump for joy as it'll make the road clearer for those with integrity marketing online (ahem, like me).
  • Michael,

    After you've been over-exposed to Internet marketing, it's easy to get jaded and even disgusted with the stuff you see.

    What's interesting is that somebody brand new to the market will respond to it... until they get jaded, too.

    Anyway, there's balance between using techniques that work now -- and techniques that will continue to work for the long haul.

    Thanks for the comment!

    Ryan
  • Bob Paroski
    Ryan:

    Thanks for the informative post.

    I was fascinated by all of the the comments and feedback you got. You really connected with a lot of people.

    It is amazing how some deceptive marketers can cause problems for the truly legitimate ones.
  • chrisinprague
    Bob, that is precisely the problem, the good marketers suffer as they are tarred with the same brush as the 'Incestuous Inner Circle' of 'Get Rich Through Internet Marketing' 'gurus'!
  • You're welcome, Bob. Glad you enjoyed it. I, for one, was totally blown away by the response this post got. I've been shell-shocked all week.

    Ryan
  • TheBrainTeacher
    Hello Ryan.

    Thank you for this post. I personally have faith in Eric Graham and believe his conversiondoctor.com and web-site-evaluations.com sites and services may help me get past the 80% opt-in barrier.

    Having said that I AM sweating over a $1997 report that I expected to arrive by now... so you've made me VERY nervous!

    I'll watch this and follow your Tweets with interest!

    Thanks
    Jonathan
    http://thebrainteacher.com
  • TheBrainTeacher
    No more sweating. All looking good!
  • Good! I'm glad to hear that, Jonathan.
  • Ryan,

    Thanks for the post and your responsible leadership in this discussion. Frankly, I was very skeptical at first whether this will turn out to be a good lesson or not. When you name names all sorts of things can happen and the thread of comments often develops a dynamic itself.

    Lots of good lessons to learn here, indeed. Well done.
  • Thanks, John.

    I've written two follow-up posts this week to redirect attention back to the positive. Because while it may good to be aware of what's happening, I would much rather dwell on positive things. :-)

    Ryan
  • For those who question my judgment in mentioning Eric Graham in this post, I offer the following collection of links:

    Links to Customer Complaints:

    http://www.pqinternet.com/220.htm
    http://emarketworks.com/273/zero-to-500-a-month...
    http://emarketworks.com/344/zeroto500-final-upd...
    http://emarketworks.com/541/eric-graham-poster-...
    http://www.elanelan.com/EricGraham.htm
    http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/graha...

    Cathi Adams and David and Caramia Hartley have been among the most vocal former customers to speak out against Eric.

    I have also received a private email from a former customer of Eric's confirming the validity of what I've written here.

    It is one thing to provide a product or service and have an unsatisfied customer. Happens all the time.

    It's another to take a person's money... and then not provide the product or service that was advertised. That is theft.

    Ryan
  • Ryan,
    This is the first post of yours I've ever read. Why that one Mr Butts is picking on Lynn Terry, I don't know. I've always found her to be quite transparent. I do agree that I'm tried of seeing Mike Filsaime leave a testimonial on a site, only to see (I wish I could remember the product Easy Video Producer maybe... not sure) that same guy on Mike's site leaving a testimonial. I've done the direct opposite of your article (no research). I just know you see all the same faces on these websites. Lots of back scratching going on. I've always known it, and it was nice to see someone do the math, and report on it.
  • David - There is a lot of back-scratching going on. I think that happens naturally when there is mutual respect, but it's gotten a bit excessive between certain folks in this industry.

    The more testimonials you give out, the less valuable each one is. Testimonials, like anything else, can become a commodity. Ever seen Joe Vitale give a testimonial for something? ;-)

    Thanks again for the comment.

    Ryan
  • Woo-eee!! No kidding. This post has my head swimming, since I am really not that into this whole IM niche. However, I have to agree with David here about Mr. Butts' bone to pick with Lynn Terry. She happens to my neighbor and one of my best friends and the only reason that I'm open to the true possibilities in this crazy online world. I can assure anyone that nothing in her cares to be a "guru!"
  • Ryan,

    Social media is really showing its usefulness. The ugly truth can't be hidden from the people that need to hear it anymore.

    Sadly, there are always more unsuspecting folks just discovering the world of IM.

    Thanks for shining a light down a dark hole that needed to be exposed.
  • Perry,

    Information travels much more quickly these days, doesn't it? Hopefully, newbies will do their due diligence before investing hard-earned money.

    Ryan
  • Great article, Ryan.

    But I'm really curious. Who were the three Internet Marketers who got their merchant accounts shut down? Please, oh, please... name names!

    (Just kidding.)

    All the best,
    Doberman Dan
  • Dan :: what a ridiculous way to hold such a big dog.

    I do plan to name names regarding the merchant accounts ... and I think it's going to be a very long list.
  • Hey SD,

    You should see the doberman now. I can't even pick him up anymore.

    Can't wait for your list.

    BTW, I'm a new fan of yours. Ben Settle turned me on to your blog and I've had a blast reading it.

    Dan
  • Thanks, Dan.

    Since the names were shared with me in private, those stay private. :-)

    The stuff I put into this post was already available in public, on the Internet, for everybody to see. All I did was consolidate it into a single post with a single theme.

    Ryan
  • Brian Ochsner
    Ryan - Great article, you've definitely done your homework. Whether you're doing business online or offline, the fundamentals are still the same:

    1. Find qualified prospects who want/need your product or service
    2. Provide value and build a relationship with them
    3. Be up-front and honest about how you can help solve their problem(s)

    I'm glad to see the trend (hopefully) for 2010 is getting "back to basics" in Internet and offline marketing. Fundamentals are critical in business and life success - if you get away from - or get sloppy - with them, it'll come back to haunt you sooner or later.

    That's my two cents, hope 2010 is starting off well for you and family.

    Brian
  • Good summary of the basics, Brian. That's what's going to keep on working year in, year out.
  • I guess someone needed to say it. Yeah, most of it is pretty suspicious. Hopefully, though, you'll follow up with a good guy report. E.g. I think Perry Marhsall is the real thing.

    Here's another one for you...

    Event #6: Jimmy D. Brown's 50% Discount

    Here's what happened:

    1. In December Brown sends email out.

    2. Email says what it still says on his website at http://www.jimmybrown.com/3-ways-to-get-extra-s...

    Visit http://JimmyBrown.com and http://www.123webmarketing.com to view all of the special reports, ebooks, physical products, software and more that are available. Find the price. Take 50% off. Send me a Paypal payment to webmaster@profitsvault.com. Within 24 hours I’ll email you back with download instructions.

    3. Just send him a PayPal account for 50% of the advertised price. Don't order online.

    4. I email Jimmy D. Brown asking doesn't PayPal circumvent the 50% Clickbank commission that is supposed to go out as affiliates commissions.

    5. He never replies.

    6. Send again.

    7. He doesn't reply.

    As one who affiliated for him (I'm out of that niche) I think this looks pretty low. He's taking affiliate leads and avoiding the payouts.

    Am I missing something here?

    I always found him a little suspicious. Maybe by I posting here he might actually reply (or maybe you could add it to a follow up post). I had written him previously about some things that didn't make since in homeprenuer product (e.g., like he just made it up and it wasn't really an account of his work day) and he also never replied.

    You really gotta wonder about these goo-roos. If he's really making millions a year why would he pull a stunt like this.
  • John,

    Anytime you use an affiliate network to drive traffic and then try to collect payment through a channel that is not being tracked (phone or PayPal), that is effectively stealing affiliate commissions.

    Maybe it was intentional. Or maybe he didn't think about it until afterwards and only then realized his mistake.

    It's actually fairly easy to make mistakes when it comes to tracking and awarding affiliate commissions.

    Was the discount percentage equal to the percentage Jimmy was paying his affiliates? If so, that certainly makes it appear more suspicious than it would otherwise.

    Ryan
  • Brother Ryan, what I'm impressed with is this: in an IM world where every lame blog post, webinar, etc is sold as "controversial", you've penned a legitimately controversial post.

    More power to you.

    And not just for calling people out, but for giving them a professional atmosphere in which to defend themselves.
  • Thank you, Ross. Trust me, this degree of controversy was unintended. :-)
  • Ryan, your prediction is incorrect (tongue in cheek) - because it's the DAWN of the "new Internet marketing guru"... like YOU!

    I recall you as being one of the very first buyers who sent a testimonial for my course, "Ezine ANTI Marketing" - way back in 2003 (while you were at Sonlight Curriculum!)

    Now look how far you've come :-)

    All success
    Dr.Mani
  • Good memory, Dr.Mani! Yes, I very much enjoyed that course and learned a lot from it. Thanks for stopping by my blog and commenting!

    Ryan
  • Reeveso
    Yikes dude! Great job on picking an obviously piping-hot topic! You've been spot on the money lately :)

    I think this whole situation kind of sucks. I have a trial offer, but I am so ethical about it - it's almost "too" much.

    They are reminded that it's a FREE offer probably at least 3-4 times before they order...and on the upsells it VERY VERY clearly states that they'll be charged...PLUS once they click the add to cart button on the upsell, it reminds them AGAIN that they'll be charged...AND they have 6 seconds to be able to cancel.

    (By the way I'm calling my merchant account today to have them look it over and see if it's "legal", but I have a feeling it won't be - even though it's so ridiculously transparent)

    Sucks for all of us who are actually ethical that companies doing ACAI berry stuff are ruining it.

    And Ryan I think it's more of a problem of products like that, not really Internet Marketers. Most Internet Marketers are little minnows compared to the sharks running FLOGS - which in my opinion are the REAL problems which caused all this.

    Overall...I think it all comes down to this and this is what I'm personally pissed about.

    There is NOTHING wrong with offering free trials, upsells, cross-sells, etc. My mindset is that I should do everything possible to give the customer as much as I can. Why? Because THEY WANT IT! I will only provide the absolute best information and my customers want that info.

    However, the problem is when people like Filsaime make order pages with everything pre-checked and you have to manually UN-CHECK the box in order not to get it.

    Hell...with Filsaime's previous launch, I spent a good 5 minutes making sure I didn't get the monthly magazine (I admit, I just wanted the online videos). But guess what? I STILL got signed up for them.

    And Eric Graham...I actually had a problem with you as well. I signed up for a month of your membership program at like $50 or somewhere close...but after a single day got through all the material and "tried" to cancel, but couldn't. After something like 3 months and about 4-5 emails I had to do a chargeback unfortunately.

    I'm not saying you wouldn't cancel me "purposely"...and still love your work...however...your customer service department REALLY needs to step it up - especially in these times.

    Ok...my Magic Mouse just died, gotta change the batteries. I hope I can send this without using the mouse!

    Great post Ryan...good job stirring the community up. All I can say is - YOU are one of the most honest and ethical people I've ever talked to since joining this community....so thumbs up to you brother :)

    Jeremy Reeves
    www.ControlBeatingCopy.com
  • Jeremy - It is unfortunate that a few "bad apples" are causing everybody to pay for their bad behavior. But on the bright side, I think this does force above-board business dealings -- and actually makes it easier for ethical business people to succeed.

    And as far as "stirring the community up" -- I did NOT expect this post to get so many comments.

    Ryan

    P.S. I appreciate the compliment. I'm humbled.
  • Reeveso
    Yes I whole-heartedly agree that this is GOOD in the long run. It just sucks switching things around right now!

    Just talked to our merchant account too - we have to come up with a completely new offer...although I figured out a way in which the conversions will be lower, but the people who DO stick will most likely stick much longer.

    Jeremy

    P.S. You're up to nearly 150 comments! You're starting a revolution here bud :)
  • Great article Ryan! I specially love your 1-2-3 guideline at the end of the article. I think the biggest take away is that business as usual is no longer an option for the big name regurgitators
  • Thanks, Rafael! Yeah, that 1-2-3 takeaway at the end just popped into my mind as I was finishing the post. Glad you found it helpful.
  • bleep boop
    the website that Stomping the search engines taught you how to build only makes you $20 - $70 per month? And you thought highly of Brad for that? Man, that's not even enough to pay your car loan (or insurance for that matter) :-)
  • Droid you rock LOL you are like the EMINIEM of internet marketing LOL
  • Well, I did pick a very general topic: acronyms.
  • Jack
    I agree with complete transparency and making offers fair and bulletproof. Problem is the Visa/Mastercard "crackdown" took out entire corps based on unestablished guidelines. Check and you will see... your buds (Judd and Kevin) at PowerPay are completely in the dark - I have inside info on that- and/or withholding information because "the man" is watching them so to speak.

    I've spoken to several straight shooting marketers that were knocked out for websites that were old and never used, but considered non-compliant or 100% FTC compliant but had such high volume, they naturally had higher than average refunds and such. I think PowerPay will get blackballed by marketers in the future IMO.
  • Jack - I would not be surprised if Judd and others at PowerPay are in the dark. If Visa/MasterCard issues an ultimatum with expensive penalties attached, I'm pretty sure you'll just follow orders.

    And marketing history is full of cases studies where ethical marketers had their merchant accounts shut down. I do feel badly for good guys who get caught up in the crossfire so to speak.

    I also find it strange that the new guidelines say you can only have one merchant account -- and that two is a sign of fraudulent activity. My understanding is that guys do this as insurance in case of unjustly being shut down.

    Is this something that only happened to PowerPay, or is it bigger than that?
  • Ryan,

    As many people know, I work very close with PowerPay. I personally have had many conversations with Jud over the past week as you can imagine.

    PowerPay does NOT have a problem with multiple merchant accounts. It's the way the merchant accounts are setup. This is Visa/Mastercard's issue.

    Here's the example many, many HIGH PROFILE marketers have their recurring billing setup.

    1 - Account for the initial charge.
    1 - Account for the recurring billing.
    1 - Account for upsells.

    So for the same company, doing a shipping or initial product sale then into a forced continuity program they have 3 merchant accounts. The reason for this is if they have high charge backs or refunds, it won't affect their other merchant accounts if one merchant account should be taken away.

    As you can see this is a way go under the radar with Visa/Mastercard with refunds and chargebacks. This is what people are getting nailed for.

    You can have multiple merchant accounts. I have like 7 merchant accounts except mine are all for different companies I own.

    In response to Jack about PowerPay.

    Many of these high profile marketers who have had their accounts shut off were NOT due to refunds. PowerPay was faced with an ultimatum. Shut these people off or be charged $100,000 for each account.

    PowerPay has fought tooth and nail to keep many accounts open. I know of several very very high profile accounts which should be very thankful to PowerPay because they kept their accounts open.

    This ruling is not limited to PowerPay. Because of their relationship with Visa/Mastercard, they have some power.

    Visa/Mastercard has gone into about 20-30 merchant processors and just shut down the whole company if they have too many accounts like I described above.

    I hope this helps people understand what is going on.

    I will be doing an interview with Jud once we get better clarity with Visa/Mastercard and will post up for free so people get the information directly.
  • Armand,

    Thank you for clarifying the merchant account issue. Very helpful!

    Ryan
  • Jack
    Hi Ryan,

    Nope... PowerPay is absolutely not the only ones they are going after. From the news I am getting it is as if there is a very well calculated shutdown of recurring billing processors going on...one merchant gateway/provider after another.

    Yes, it is VERY sad that some of the good guys are getting shut down.. and some permanently. I hope this works whatever they are trying to do. I mean, what's next... every gym in the USA? What about sites like The Biggest Loser... don't they have like a few hundred thousand members at $9.95 a month? It's not just having two accounts... what many people do is manage their chargeback rate on the advice of certain Merchant Processors... by opening multiple accounts and having each serve as separate accounts. So if one gets hit, like you said... they are protected and stay in business. Many people use it wisely to manage multiple products... many do not. But as it seems, we're all Jesus here. Paying for the sins of others.
  • John Thomas
    So, decided to have a nice, quiet day on the blog, eh, Ryan? :-D

    It takes some chutzpah to name names like that. Much respect. :-D

    - John
  • I'm not sure "quiet" is the right word, but I'll go with it. :-)

    (In addition to all the comments here, I've had private emails and phone calls as well. Yikes!)
  • John Thomas
    I'm sure it's been an... er... "interesting" few days since posting this. :-)

    But, hey, I'm sure it has allowed you to exercise your "forgiveness muscles."
  • Ryan, thanks so much for this article. Makes me know that I'm not the only one hear of the same opinions. ;)
  • Ryan, I'd like to add one item to your list of ways to protect yourself.

    Last year I got caught up in a sales process and ordered a $495 DVD program. A few days later I got a bad case of the post-sales blues and sent the sellers an email cancelling my order.

    The sellers (a husband and wife team) ignored that email. When I sent out a second email, they told me they'd already shipped the DVDs and just to return them.

    When they arrived in my PO box, I took the package right to the window and told the clerk I was refusing it, gave it to her and got a receipt for it.

    All through that month I kept emailing the sellers about it but they never responded. By that time, the charge was on my credit card. So I finally called the bank and told them the situation.

    The bank took it off my bill and I thought all was well until a few months later I got a notice from the bank that the sellers were disputing my charge back. They claimed they never received the package back.

    I went to the PO who gave me their computer record that the returned the package back to original zip code (but didn't show the precise address, for reasons I can't explain.).

    I faxed all this to the bank, but they still refused to allow me to charge it back. The woman agreed I returned the package, but because the sellers continued to claim they never received it, and I didn't have a signed receipt that they received it, I was S*O*L*.

    She then told me that if I'd just kept it and claimed I didn't receive it, I could have charged it back because the sellers didn't require me to sign for it.

    Yes, it's crazy. The bank would have rewarded me for being dishonest, but I have to pay $495 because I was honest and, I believe, the sellers are either dishonest or disorganized.

    The bank totally ignored the issue of the sellers shipping me the DVDs after I emailed them to cancel the order.

    Needless to say, I won't buy a single thing from them again -- and if their merchant account is ever stopped I won't be sorry.

    So to add to your list -- if you buy a physical item and change your mind,
    don't refuse the package. Pay the postage to resend it, requiring a signature for receipt.
  • Hey Rick! Been forever since we talked.

    Physical shipments are definitely trickier because you've taken receipt of something, which shows that you really did purchase the product yourself.

    But I agree: it's crazy how they system works.
  • Hey Ryan,

    I was a bit surprised to see my name in your post because you and I have had some great conversations in the past and I considered you a friend (and still do.)

    I even linked to you in one of my latest blog posts:
    http://www.conversiondoctor.com/conversion-blog...

    It’s disappointing that you would post that without at least emailing me to verify what is true and what is exaggerated or misrepresented.

    However, I believe your intent was positive and overall you are doing a service to the internet marketing community by holding the feet of those you view as less than ethical to the fire. And I applaud you for that.

    And with the notable exception of a couple disappointing anti-Mormon jabs you took at Russell Brunson in your comments on another blog, I’ve always respected you and what you’ve had to say.

    It is certainly my fault for not coming out publically to clear the air about the unfortunately vocal minority that is attempting to tarnish my reputation.

    While I had decided to ignore Fred’s post simply because I didn’t want to get into some kind of childish blog argument… when a marketer that I actually respect buys into the accusations I guess it’s time to attempt to set the record straight.

    (Or at least show that there are certainly 2 sides to every story.)

    It appears that if marketers I respect are jumping to the wrong conclusion as the result of my silence, then it’s time to air out my dirty laundry in public and take responsibility for my part in all of this.

    Please don’t take any of this as an attack on Fred. In spite of what he posted and some of the things he has said about me on his blog and in his emails to me, I feel sorry for him and I wish him and his family nothing but the best in the future.

    I still believe in him and his ability to finally breakthrough and begin to achieve some degree of success in his online efforts. (Perhaps I even believe in him more than he believes in himself…)

    In late 2008, Fred contacted me in response to a video I had recorded offering to do 1-on-1 full day consultations with a handful of people for half of my normal $10,000 per day rate.

    Fred sent me a lengthy email, begging me to accept him even though he didn’t have the $4,997 I was asking for the full day consultation.

    He explained that he was about to lose his job, and would soon have no income for his family and in spite of trying to make money online for several years nothing had really worked for him.

    But because of the sob story and his seeming desperation, my heart went out to him and I told him I’d try and figure out a way I could help.

    A couple days later, he sent me another email offering me one of his guitars in exchange for working with him for the day.

    Since I don’t play the guitar, my initial reaction was to politely tell him “no”, but because I really did want to figure out a way I could help him out of his mess, and because my father plays the guitar (and since this was right before Christmas, I thought it would make a nice gift for my dad), I decided to accept his guitar, with a couple of conditions (which I’ll explain a bit later.)

    I want to be clear and fair about this… This was MY mistake, not Fred’s. Fred was simply being resourceful, creative, and persistent and I admire and respect him for that.

    His persistence, creativity and the desperation he expressed to me about his situation and family, coupled with my desire to give my father a gift I thought he would enjoy, caused my heart to win out over my head.

    It was 100% my fault and I shouldn’t have accepted the offer. I just wanted to help him and so I did it as a favor to Fred.

    Of course I was a bit surprised to learn that in spite of running an “Internet Business Blog” for several years, he was not actually making any money online. (Which should have been my second warning sign.)

    Normally, one of my pet peeves in the IM community is people who teach regurgitated theory that they have not actually tested themselves, or attempt to teach others how to make money or have an “internet Business” if they are not actually making money online themselves.

    But because Fred and I had a few interactions and emails in the past, and I truly wanted to try and help him out of the desperate situation he had found himself in, I still accepted his offer.

    So I invited him into my home, picked him up at his motel and even though in my video I promised 8 hours for the consultation, I worked with Fred ALL DAY. Until well after 9:00 PM.

    During the day together I laid out several detailed, step-by-step business plans for him for both products and even continuity programs, I answered every single question he asked me, and even helped him record an entire product with my own cameras and microphones.

    Here is what Fred had to say about our day together:

    http://www.conversiondoctor.com/fred/

    Often consulting and coaching services often suffer from what is known as the “call girl effect”, which simply means that the client’s perception of and gratitude for the value of your service often drops off quickly after the service is performed.

    It breaks my heart to watch that video, hear and see Fred talk about the SEVERAL full, detailed plans we created together and how the day was “the best day he ever had” (in regards to his business), how it was going to be a turning point in his business, and how he would be light years ahead because of spending the day with me, and then go to Fred’s blog and see what he wrote.

    It also breaks my heart to realize that he is actually RIGHT about some of what he wrote, and I’ll explain that in a minute.

    But when he talks about how executing on the plans I gave him will take his business to the next level, and then I look at his blog and see that he didn’t execute on those plans and is pretty much exactly where he was last year, that is the real disappointing thing for me.

    While I made every effort to over-deliver on Fred’s expectations during his day in my home, and from the video you can obviously tell he was very excited about the detailed, step-by-step plans I had created for him, it’s obvious that the time that has passed since I gave him his full day consultation his gratitude for my help dropped off significantly.

    I even paid for his lunch when we went out to a local restaurant.

    In hindsight the fact that he didn’t offer to pay should have been an additional warning sign about where his mindset was at and the value he placed on my time.

    But in the end, I need to take responsibility for that as well, because by accepting a guitar for my dad, in exchange for a full day of my time, I was training him to not respect the value of my time.

    Now, I want to make something VERY clear… I did not make a DIME from the favor I did for Fred in trying to help him. In fact, I actually LOST money and time with my family by giving him a full day (12+ hour) consultation.

    I did this 100% as a favor to him… I do not work for guitars, chickens or pigs.

    But again, I don’t blame Fred. This situation was my fault, because I accepted the guitar with a couple additional conditions, one of which was for him to agree to help me by working the registration and back table, and running microphones during an event I was going to hold later in the year.

    Unfortunately, when the time came for me to hold my private “Advanced Online Persuasion Workshop” here in Kansas City in June of last year, even though I emailed him twice about helping, he never responded. (Of course I’m sure he’ll claim he never got my emails, as he did with several others I sent him. But at the end of the day, he and I both know the real truth.)

    He could have got into a $5,000 per person event for free, in exchange for just helping out (as he agreed to do as part of my favor to him) yet he didn’t come.

    Now I’m not sure if he didn’t come because he couldn’t afford the airline ticket or hotel but either way, the only part of his “guitar deal” that would have actually benefited and helped me and my business in exchange for working with him for the full day, he did not do.

    (The sad part is, because at that point I still wanted to help him, if he had simply told me money was tight, I’d have probably let him stay at my house during the event. In hindsight I’m glad I didn’t…)

    Although, I believe (and from Fred’s own words at the end of his day with me so did he) that the plans and advice I gave him during his consultation could have made a significant impact on his life if he had only taken action on them and actually carried them out, ACTING on the plans was up to him.

    I simply could not and would not do it all for him.

    I’m a firm believer in personal responsibility. Each individual is responsible for his or her own success in life, and while seeking out the advice of a mentor or coach is a smart thing to do, at the end of the day it is still the individual’s responsibility to take action on the plans and recommendations of that mentor or coach.

    While I’m willing to take 100% responsibility for the fact that I brought this situation upon myself by accepting an offer I should not have accepted, and trying to help someone who was not yet at a point in his business and mindset where I had any business trying to help him, I simply cannot accept responsibility for another person’s actions or LACK of actions.

    But something Fred IS right in being upset with me about is my poor email communication with him. I take full responsibility for that, and I admit that I’m probably one of the hardest people on earth to get in touch with via email or phone.

    Originally the system was designed to simply help me protect my time and help me focus on my family and my high ROI activities.

    But on occasion these intentional barriers and systems I have in place to protect my time, (and sanity) do a disservice to one of my clients (on in Fred’s case, someone I’m trying to help out.)

    What I sold in the video Fred began begging me to let him get in on, was a full day consultation with me at half price ($4997 rather than $10k.)

    But where I dropped the ball is that I also added several free bonuses which included several phone consultations, the right to record all or part of the full day and sell it as a product and email access to me.

    While Fred and I did have a couple phone consultations, and I let him record an interview style product which he went on to sell, my answers to his email questions were slow and sporadic.

    Part of the problem early on was, since he had not actually paid for the full day consultation, and I was simply helping him out in exchange for my dad’s guitar and his help at my event, he was not automatically added to the “approved senders list” for my email coaching.

    That was a systems failure on my part. (Which gladly can never be repeated because now regardless of how touching and compelling someone’s story of desperation is, I simply refuse to exchange my time for guitars, pigs, cows or anything else my wife can’t spend!) ;-)

    But for me (and Fred) the frustrating part came after he was put on the approved senders list.

    Because of his apparent frustration at his early emails going into a black hole and my failure to manage his expectations of how his email access would work (because he was in the program, basically as a favor, I had to give priority and my first responses to my paying clients), he had sent me a couple of fairly nasty emails in which he accused me of some rather bizarre things.

    While I can understand his frustration over the slow email response, because I chose who I work with carefully and I’m in the fortunate position that I can be quick to “fire” clients that are not “fun” for me to work with, I’m simply not used to putting up with a client getting that way with me.

    Even though during the course of his email access I answered dozens of emails, often recording him detailed videos answering his questions (and these were NOT short videos… In total I recorded him HOURS of videos in response to his questions.)

    In one of his emails he complained about the blizzard that occurred during his visit (which he even complained about again in his blog post about me.)

    In another email he got angry with me because HE dropped the hard drive that contained the video I recorded for him during his visit to my home. Since I delete the recordings off the hard-drive in my video camera when I transfer them to my computer (or in this case Fred’s hard drive), he became upset that I didn’t keep a copy of the product I made for him in my cameras memory.



    And as I mentioned, Fred made some wild statements and accusations in several of the emails he sent me over the past year. While I’m not going to chronicle all of them in this comment, just to give you a taste of some of them that were the last straw and caused me to pull the plug and “fire” him as a client were...

    An accusation that I was in reality James Brausch, and that James never existed it was just me using a pen name.

    An accusation that the place I invited him into and gave him his full day consultation in was not actually my home, and I must have just rented the house for the day to impress him.

    ??? Why would I rent a huge home in a country club for a full day, move all of my books and aviation stuff into it, just to impress somebody who didn’t have and had not paid me any actual money?

    (Some of these were so strange they were to the point of being comical…)

    And those are just a couple of the screwy things he emailed me.

    Again, I take full responsibility for the frustration that must have pushed him to makes some of these absurd accusations and remarks. But it doesn’t mean I’ve got to keep investing my time for free trying to help someone who sends me that kind of wacky stuff.

    Another area that frustrated me was when he began selling the DVD I recorded for him during while he was in my home, his original salesletter was pretty awful.

    I recorded him several videos, created a couple PDF guides and checklists and even gave him a full HTML salesletter template to help him use.

    He made few changes based on my recommendations, but much of what I recommended in the videos, and PDFs he ignored.

    He then asked for a video based critique of the letter, which took me a couple weeks to get around to recording (again my fault here for not being faster.)

    But after I recorded the in depth critique of his letter (actually more of a full rewrite as the video was around an hour in length), within a couple weeks he was asking me for another critique video.

    Which was fine… until I went to the site to begin the critique and saw that he had not made a SINGLE change I recommended in the first video.

    Again, in my email coaching with clients who pay month to month, if somebody keeps asking me the same question over and over without following through on my advice, I typically fire them. They are just not worth the aggravation to deal with. And they are not receiving any benefit from my advice.

    Now like I said, I take full responsibility for the slow (and at times non-existent) email access. I dropped the ball, and I can certainly understand how that caused him frustration. Particularly in light of his financial desperation.

    He then, began asking me to approach my friends and partners to promote the product, which I would gladly have done IF he had made the changes I recommended to the salesletter and actually had something that would convert for the partners I recommended him to.

    But I’m not going to have people promote a product with a salesletter that doesn’t convert.

    Now in Fred’s defense in the video I recorded about the product creation I mentioned that there were 2 options for selling the product we record during our day together.

    You can either have shared copyrights, write the salesletter, sell it and fulfill on it yourself and keep 100% of the profits.

    Or we could do the product as a 50/50 JV, in which I would write the salesletter, do the testing and take care of the marketing (which included approaching some of my marketing buddies to promote it.)

    Fred chose the 100% option.

    From what he posted on his blog, and it looks like he may have been confused and thought that I’d also get partners to promote the product even if it was not a 50/50 JV where I wrote the letter. That was NOT the case and NOT what I offered in the video.

    But I basically terminated his email access when he began to cross the line, didn’t take action on my recommendations and when he failed to live up to the second part of the deal he made for my help.

    I fully admit and take responsibility for the shortcomings with my poor communication (and not just with Fred.) And perhaps his frustration over the email situation was what caused him to decide to not help with the event. I may never know the truth.

    But in the end, I simply couldn’t justify taking abuse and wild accusations via email from someone who was unwilling to take any real action on my advice.

    Please don’t misunderstand… I believe Fred is a good person, and I can sympathize with his frustration and even anger. And in hindsight, since the email access was a free bonus on the video he watched, I probably shouldn’t have cut him off.

    As I’ve said I take full responsibility for this, and I am in the process of making some significant changes in the way I do business, communicate with clients and the type of clients I accept.

    But I believe that in any adversity, “failure” or “negative situation” is the seed of a lesson that can have a positive impact on you and others.

    So hopefully my public “failure” here can help others succeed if they take a couple lessons to heart…

    A key lesson here for any marketers reading this who are service providers (such as fellow copywriters, coaches and consultants) is to be very careful when accepting clients who are in “desperate” situations.

    While you want to seek out a “starving crowd” when selling products, as a service provider (particularly selling B2B) a starving crowd leads to “problem clients”.

    Often when a client comes to you out of “desperation”, they are in that desperate situation because of their mindset, habits, past actions (or lack of actions.)

    So regardless of what you do to try and help them or if you are a copywriter, regardless of how good the copy you write is, when they don’t follow through or when they don’t use your copy the way you intended, they will then blame YOU and begin complaining.

    When you accept “desperate clients”, you are also accepting responsibility for the problems that made them desperate in the first place.

    They will not value your time. They will not follow your advice. They will edit your copy beyond all recognition. They will complain (in private AND in public.)

    And after not following your advice, or neutering your copy, they will then blame YOU for their failures.

    (Just to be clear, none of the above was specifically aimed at Fred. This is just my experience in general with “desperate” clients.)

    Also, as a service provider I’ve learned the hard way that conversion rates can actually be TOO HIGH!

    There really is such a thing as being TOO persuasive. Because when you are too persuasive, you often find yourself attracting the wrong type of client. People will buy your services, who simply have no business being your clients, because of either their financial situation or their mindset (the two of which are inseparable.)

    Again, when that happens it is the fault of the seller, not the buyer.

    As the “Conversion Doctor”, this lesson that conversion rates can be too high has been a hard one for me to learn. And unfortunately a lesson I’ve had to learn over and over.

    (I know I've learned from my mistakes... Because I can repeat them EXACTLY!) ;-)

    Hopefully my response here will clear up a few things or at least show that the situation is not as one sided as it was made out to be.

    Again, I wish Fred the best of luck, I believe in his ability to still succeed, and I am sorry for the frustration my poor email response caused him. I hope he digs out the notes, action plans and mindmaps I made with him and actually implements them to create the business he and his family deserve.

    I‘m sure Fred will post a comment responding to some of what I’ve said.

    But I don’t intend to turn the comments section of your blog into some negative back and forth nonsense. So I’ll do my best not to get dragged into any of that.

    Ryan, I understand and support your reasons for posting this to your blog and I agree with about 80% of it (I’m sure you can figure out the 20% I take exception to… LOL…)

    So of course when you say “Eric Graham Fails to Deliver” based on what a couple people (with their own agendas) have said about me online I’ve got to disagree with you.

    Because, while I’ll admit and take full responsibility that I suck at answering email, occasionally take on clients that I probably shouldn’t have, I also KNOW that I massively OVERDELIVER when people actually take ACTION on my advice, recommendations and plans I create for them.

    Even though I’ve dropped the ball in the past, and since I’m human, probably will again in the future, fortunately for every dissatisfied client (or person I try and do a favor for), I have hundreds that have greatly improved their businesses and lives by working with me.

    But, overall, I think your post is a timely and needed message to the entire Internet Marketing community.

    Many of the negative trends and things you point out in your post are the exact reasons I actually pulled back from doing much in the IM niche last year to focus on family and my niche publishing business.

    While there are many, many good, ethical and positive marketers who deliver real value to the customers who act on their advice and teaching, there are unfortunately far more who do not.

    If some of my past mistakes mean that in the eyes of some I’m in the category of “those who don’t”, so be it. I actually understand.

    Your blog post (and even Fred’s) has certainly made me do a bit of introspection and self-analysis. As I mentioned I believe that everyone is responsible for what happens and the results they get in life, so I’ve got some praying and soul searching to do to see what changes I need to make in the ways I attract and work with my clients.

    So for that I thank you (and Fred.)

    God bless,
    Eric
  • Michael
    I signed up for Eric's membership site early last year at $47 per month. After two months, Eric had not posted any new content. (The only content he had ever posted were free webinars he had done with other people for their list.)

    So I sent an email, through his support system, requesting my membership be canceled. Since Eric had said in the sale copy that this was all that was needed, I assumed everything was taken care of. Then I got charged again the next month. So I sent another email, this time asking for a confirmation email in return. No reply. This goes on for months. Even after sending a certified letter he would not reply or stop charging my card. Eventually I had to go to my bank and cancel the card.

    After describing this incident to a business consultant I work with, he told me this is not the first incident of this type he's heard of with Eric Graham.

    Being the hardest person to get in touch is no excuse for bad business. If that's really true, (likely it's not and it's just a positioning ploy), then hire someone to do your support for you!
  • Eric :: Isn't it a shame that you got mentioned on a post that mentions me?

    Let me answer that for you :: yeah ... it's a shame. A real doozey of a shame.

    I think you are confused about what you should be "praying and soul searching" about. Maybe I can help you straighten that out.
  • Eric,

    Please allow me to respond.

    I think you are a very knowledgeable and persuasive man. I respect your expertise, and I have personally found your free information on split-testing and how to raise conversions to be helpful.

    I was being very specific and intentional when I used the phrase, "There seems to be a pattern of negligence."

    I'm not criticizing your expertise at all; I am concerned about the testimony of multiple customers who claim they purchased products that were not delivered, and that refunds have not been honored.

    From what I've read, people who purchased "From Zero to 500" were supposed to receive 12 modules; you only delivered two. Those who are now going public are doing so because you have not issued refunds to them.

    Another customer, Riggie Freyer, says he bought your "Headline Testing Secrets System." He claims that it was a 9 module program, but that you only delivered 1 module.

    Source: http://www.tinyurl.com/yzokgxv

    Plus, there are the communication issues that many customers have publicly mentioned.

    If this was just about Fred, I would not have included you in my blog post. This is bigger than just Fred.

    Speaking of Fred, two "customers" of yours left comments on Fred's blog. There is "Danny" from the UK and "Jenny" from Texas. Both seemed unusually upset by what Fred had written, and both spoke out passionately in your favor.

    What's interesting is that both Danny and Jenny (similar names, yes?) posted from anonymous IP addresses so they could not be tracked. Furthermore, their arguments sound very similar to the arguments you've used here. For instance...

    ERIC:

    "But something Fred IS right in being upset with me about is my poor email communication with him. I take full responsibility for that, and I admit that I'm probably one of the hardest people on earth to get in touch with via email or phone."

    DANNY:

    "I must admit I found Eric almost as hard to get email replies from as you did. He has to be one of the hardest people to get in touch with via email I've ever encountered."

    ******

    The similarity in word choice is striking. I found the same thing comparing what you and "Jenny" wrote.

    To me, it's clear that you were posting as both Danny and Jenny, and that you were smart enough to use anonymous proxy servers in both the UK and Texas to make your fake customers appear as real as possible.

    ******

    Eric, you say: "I was a bit surprised to see my name in your post."

    I don't think you were surprised. I believe you saw that I had voted up Fred's post on Digg.com, and so you were afraid I would say something. That's why this last week you friended me on Digg, retweeted my tweets on Twitter, and even linked to my blog from your blog.

    I believe you were trying to build up goodwill so I would feel badly for posting anything negative about you.

    ******

    Eric, you also say, "you and I have had some great conversations in the past." Well, I did come to that event in Denver to meet you, but we didn't really have much conversation other than chatting in the hall between interruptions for a couple hours or so.

    And when I attempted to partner with you on a webinar, you didn't respond other than to ask me to promote one of your own webinars. I did promote that webinar here:

    http://ryanhealy.typepad.com/copywriting/2007/1...

    I have also linked to some of your blog posts in the past, and you've linked to mine. But other than that, I don't recall any conversations we've had.

    Do I consider you a friend? Yes, in the sense that we've been friendly to each other and have promoted each other. It would be more accurate to say that we are business acquaintances with mutual respect for each other.

    Eric, you say, "And with the notable exception of a couple disappointing anti-Mormon jabs you took at Russell Brunson in your comments on another blog, I've always respected you and what you've had to say."

    I will reproduce my comment here and I will then back it up. Here is the comment I posted on November 18, 2009:

    ******

    To get a good idea of what Mormons actually believe, read Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer -- same guy who wrote Into the Wild and Into Thin Air.

    Also: Mormons are generally high achievers because their religion is based on salvation through good works. Many who can't live up to the religion's expectations either rebel against Mormonism or commit suicide. (Mormonism has a high suicide rate among its members.)

    Ryan

    ******

    My comment is not inaccurate. The higher-than-average suicide rate has been well documented by the Center for Disease Control (CDC).

    Source: http://www.lifeafter.org/mormonsuicide.asp

    Contrary to what you might infer, I respect Mormons as people. They are some of the nicest people I've ever met.

    I currently rent my house from a wonderful Mormon family. And we have some Mormon friends whom we've hosted for dinner more than once. (They recently moved to Arizona.)

    So my comment about the Mormon religion is not a jab at Mormons as people. Religion and people are two separate things.

    ******

    Eric, I love you as a person. I'm not angry at you. But I could not in good conscience stay silent.

    You now have a choice. You can publicly apologize and start delivering on your promises. Or you can continue to try to cover up your tracks by spreading disinformation.

    Either way, I am praying for you -- and hope that this becomes a turning point for you and your business.

    Sincerely,

    Ryan M. Healy

    P.S. I have saved a copy of your original comment here in a separate text file.
  • Katy
    Ryan,
    Thank you for exposing these scammers. I too was ripped off by Eric Graham.

    Eric Graham seems to spend too much time posing as his customers. It is better to spend one's time getting results. His posts on Fred Black's sites match his writing style.

    He fancies himself as so smart that no one will catch on. His defense of himself is well written. There are probably 10 to 100 X as many folks who have been ripped off.

    Anyone who is ripped off by anyone needs to report it to the
    Attorney General, US Attorney in the region of the scammer,
    the FTC, and the Better Business Bureau.

    Failure to report when clues were out there is what enabled
    Ponzi schemers like Bernie Madoff to take people for billions.
  • Eric;
    Funny... now it's apparent that you DID received all my emails... and funny how it's somehow MY fault that I never took action on email from you I NEVER RECEIVED...

    I did not get angry in my emails to you until months went by... until I had sent several emails stating that I had not heard from you... until I left you voice mail at the phone number you publish... until AFTER I had overnighted you a physical letter printed on REAL paper...

    Below I'll detail out some of the email timeline and dates... there's not that many from you so it's pretty easy.

    Before I get into the facts and fiction of your statement, let me say that you are correct; I did ask you if you would accept my guitar in exchange for your program vs. cash. I was short on cash (that's no sin)... yes I was a little desperate and frustrated, which makes what you did to me even worse. I had several guitars, one that was the same value as the program you were selling, a custom made Taylor grafted walnut. I emailed you photos and the serial number for you to verify. Funny, you had no problem communicating with me while setting up the deal... only after.

    But why you claim you lost money is beyond me... I paid for my airline ticket and hotel. While we did spend more than 8 hours together, it was not 12... if you recall you were late picking me up at my hotel because it was snowing so much.

    There are several other inaccurate statements... The only phone conversations we EVER had were the day you picked me up at the hotel. We NEVER had any phone consultations what so ever. NONE. I emailed you asking about those and the other items in the package. I also included a print out of what the package details were in the physical letter I sent you... no response. You can say you sent me email I never received and that's a gray area that's hard to prove, but WE HAD NO PHONE CONSULTATIONS.

    In my emails to you regarding how much trouble we were having communicating I offered several solutions, even setting up an email address on my server for you to use send your answers back to me... so you could just log into the web mail interface for my mail provider and type your answer there and I'd get it for sure... since you had claimed that you were sending me things I never received. I also gave you my phone number more than once... I never received a phone call.

    You state that I got angry with you for not keeping a copy of the video we recorded when I could not get it off the hard drive I dropped. That's not true and you know it. All my emails to you about that were nice and friendly... simply asking you if you had a copy. You volunteered to look for it and later said you could not find it. I didn't email you again about it until I was able to get the drive working and recovered the file.

    You also stated that you recorded multiple instructional videos for me but that's not true either... you only recorded one... and then you released that on your blog as a bonus video for signing up to your list. That's it... had you recorded others, and emailed me, I would have watched them... Again, I sent regular emails asking if you were receiving MY emails, stating that I had not received ANY replies from you... if you had indeed been sending me email and recording videos, etc. this would have prompted you to make some effort to contact me and let me know... like picking up the phone, or posting a comment on my blog... but you did not. That pretty much says that you did nothing... which is what you're accusing me of doing, which is pretty lame. So who took action and who didn't... at least I finally got the video made into a DVD after every problem known to man got in my way...

    So here's a little email history:In January I had to ASK you for your coaching email address...

    I sent several emails in February 2009 asking if you were getting my emails.

    On 3/4/2009 you answered an email I sent on 1/22/2009, with no mention the huge lapse of time between when I sent it and when you answered it, nor about all my emails asking if you were receiving my email....

    On 3/11/2009 I emailed you saying I'd watched your latest sales video on your blog, which featured my video testimonial and thought that was a little twisted since I was not getting help from you, and could not get you to respond to my emails...

    On 3/17/2009, you forwarded me an email you said you sent on 3/4/2009... Also on 3/17/2009, you forwarded me an email you said you sent on 2/25/2009, before that the last email from you was dated 2/3/2009. At this point I gave you another email address for me that's on a different server and asked you to cc it in on any future email... hoping this would cure our communication issues... you only sent a few more emails and I received them at both addresses... so that proved there was no issue between your email and my primary email address. NOTE: at this point you had multiple email addresses for my and my phone number.

    I have an email from you answering one of my questions on 3/20/2009. You actually responded to two emails on the 20th and then one on 3/24/2009.

    The next email I have from you is dated 6/19/2009 responding to my email saying I'd released the DVD... I had sent email all along, no help from you on the salesletter, not even a review saying it's good, it's bad, it sucks, it's great... nothing.

    I kept emailing you.

    7/14/2009 when you finally responded to an email, I stated in the email back to you that it was the 2nd email I'd received from you since 3/20/2009!

    The email from you on 7/14/2009 was forwarding an email you say you sent on 6/30/2009 that contains the ONLY video, template zip file, and pdf files you ever created for me... and these are the ones you later posted on your blog.

    You replied again on 7/17/2009 after I sent you an email stating that the link to the template zip file was bad. Your email said you fixed the link.

    You replied to an email on 7/27/2009 to an email I sent on 7/23/2009 asking you a few questions about the worksheet you included in the info sent in the email from 7/14... you said you were traveling and would answer my questions later that night... you never did. On 8/1/2009 I emailed you saying I'd never received your answers but not to worry about it, I'd worked through it.

    I emailed you multiple times in August asking if you ever received my emails... I've never received any other emails from you except your mailing list emails promoting your blog posts and products.

    I emailed you few times after August and yes there were some angry parts in those emails. I emailed you in December as well. No response.

    So that's a years worth of help, no need to summarize, it actually does fit in a nutshell.

    Back to a couple of other inaccuracies in your comment:

    You said we outlined several plans in our day together. That's not true. We outlined one, the DVD monthly membership site. It took almost 6 months to get the first DVD done because of all the problems, and when it didn't sell, I didn't see much point in doing another one. The rest of that day together, we reviewed a couple of other existing things I was doing and you made some suggestions, which in fact I did implement.

    You also mention "a couple of conditions" to our deal. One of which is that you ask me not to tell anyone that we traded for your services. The other was the "work the back room and video" at a workshop. You never contacted me about it. I would have been there. In June, you had my phone number, 2 email addresses for me, you know the URL to my blog, and my mailing address... uh... how is it I didn't receive ONE word from you about it with SO MANY ways at YOUR disposal to contact me? Could it be that you knew you had reneged on our deal by not providing one iota of what we agreed on?

    You infer that I claim to be something I'm not. Read every post on my blog. I never state anything that's not true. I never give any figures that I can't backup. I never say that I've done something that I have not done.

    I'm one of MANY that you have damaged. And they're coming out of the woodwork. You can throw in the "desperate" comments all you want, and the "not ready for your help yet because my business wasn't producing enough", but people know that's crap. You're trying to divert attention like a pickpocket waving his left hand while his right had takes the marks wallet out of his jacket pocket.

    Eric I'm done with this. I've posted what I wanted to on my blog and hopefully it, and what Ryan's posted here, will stop a few others from becoming victims. I don't plan on responding anymore. I am glad you said you've done some soul searching and some praying...

    I've said all I have to say.
  • I did forget to mention one thing.
    When someone reading this looks at the statement of 6 months to get a DVD made, even with all the problems, they may think it's excessive. There are reasons...

    When I visited Eric in December I mentioned to him that my dad was fighting stage 4 colon cancer. In December he took a turn for the worse and ended up passing away in March. January through March I spent a great deal of time at my parent's house. April was a blur too, helping my mother get things taken care of. I posted about this on my blog in March so it's verifiable.
  • Annette
    I signed up for Mr. Eric Grahams zero to 500 course and he never even finished the course. Supposedly he has a print newsletter also but I do not know anybody who has ever seen it.

    But what's more disturbing is I personally know someone, a very sweet gentleman who paid Eric alot of money and he would always complain about how Eric would make up stories when he would simply disapear for 2-3 weeks at a time and not say anything. And what's funny is this same guy mentioned that Eric would always say his emails would get filtered or one of his assistants messed up. And that's just the beginning.

    But lastly, and this really breaks my heart, but it's what Eric did to Nancy Adams which you can see here (www.tinyurl.com/yzokgxv).

    I don't believe Eric is a bad person at heart. I think he tries to help. But I do believe he needs to stop making excuses and deliver on his promises.

    Eric, I'm very glad to see you doing some soul searching as I will be praying for you.

    God bless you and your family.
  • Bill
    Eric:

    Fred wasn't the only person who indicated problems working with you. There is a fair number of complaints online. I read Fred's post and the other complaints, and as lengthy and detailed as your explanation here was, I have to say I still see that there was a pattern. In most of the cases, the consistent complaint was that once you had their money, your responsiveness slowed to a crawl or appeared to dry up.

    To date, have you refunded (in full) everyone that requested a refund?

    I'd also like to point out that today on Fred's blog, there were a number of commenters defending you, and according to Fred, some of them were doing so using anonymous web proxies. I'm not necessarily saying you were behind it, but thought you might like to know that your fan club for some odd reason likes to be "anonymous." You might want to talk to them about that. In the interest of transparency.
  • Very interesting and thought provoking. Hope this means we will see and end to receiving 20 emails trying to sell the same stuff. However the gurus have begun to use another ploy, and that's to sell a cheap product, and upsell you over the phone. I'm sure that ploy will be used by more Gurus this year.

    With the rise of social media, the Guru's had better watch out! That's where the "real" testimonials are going to be seen.

    On another front, wonder what's going to happen to the IM fests where the guru's peddle their coaching programs? Is this the beginning of the end for these as well?
  • Social media -- and people's willingness to speak out -- means that we need to raise the bar on how we do business. In fact, this very topic is a feature article in the latest Inc. magazine.
  • Rockin post Ryan :) I agree with your conclusions totally.
  • Very interesting article, many thanks. Certainly makes you think and very eye opening. There are some great people out there though and it can be just as hard on the people who get accidentally tarred with the same brush. Thanks again.
  • Guest
    Thank you, thank you, thank you for speaking out about all the crap that goes on behind the scenes of these huge internet marketing deals. I agree with Remarkablogger ... I'd love to see a post about some of the good guys too.

    While we're on the subject, what's the deal with Frank Kern? I hear he's had some problems with the FTC in his past, but I never managed to get all the details.
  • Kelly - If you do a few Google searches on "Frank Kern FTC" you'll probably find some stuff. Frank has been fairly forthcoming with his FTC experience. And the legal docs may still be online as well. Here's a link I just found searching for "irwin frank kern IV ftc":

    http://www.ftc.gov/os/caselist/dojsweep/031014k...
  • I have a few of Perry's products, and they are some of the best I've ever purchased. I think you're taking the first and 2nd part of his story out of context.

    I'm not a huge Fallon fan, but Andy wrote a huge post about the details involving the law suit, and even though I'm not sure he's being entirely transparent, if he's OK with Brad, then I can't hold anything against him.

    Lastly, I think you're taking a lot of this out of context and making blanket statements...and I'm not a huge IM type of guy.
  • Bill
    An apologist who claims things were "taken out of context." Wow. This type of thinking (and Nathan here is not alone) is what empowers many of the questionable marketers to continue to do what they do.

    There is extensive documentation online about the people Ryan mentions here - much of it not only unflattering but IN THESE PEOPLE'S OWN WORDS. Visit the Salty Droid's blog and you can read actual LEGAL DOCUMENTS which explain everything in unmistakable terms.

    I've been reading the Salty Droid's blog for awhile. What is interesting is that while all the Perry Belcher controversy was taking place, there was a LARGE number of knee-jerk apologists blindly supporting the guy, no matter what. This was despite a huge amount of blatantly damning evidence clearly showing that Belcher was not the "good guy" he pretended to be.

    I'm really proud of the people here (including you, Ryan) who are stepping up to the plate and going on record with a real (and specific) opinion. Of course, you've been doing that all along Ryan - and because it has always been consistent and not opportunistic, I have very high respect for you.
  • Maybe you should research the topics on your own instead of blindly following the words of another guy with an axe to grind.

    I'm not supporting the cause of IM, but I do happen to know a bit about what's taken place and as such, I'm stating what I believe to be the truth...take it or leave it.
  • Nathan :: maybe you should start blindly following someone with an axe to grind :: because whoever you are blindly following now is making you stupid.
  • Bill
    Nathan - perhaps you should read more before YOU blindly support convicted felons like Perry Belcher. You are dismissing what I (and Ryan) have said simply because it is referenced on an ascerbic blog (saltydroid.info). The facts are the facts no matter where they appear! You might not like the tone or side commentary there, but the truth is there also!

    Ryan has clearly done some research, as have I. There is really little doubt that Perry Belcher violated the terms of his probation. His probation papers can be found on the Salty Droid web site, and also on Mike Young's blog (mikeyounglaw.com). Do you want me to itemize Perry Belcher's violations specifically? Because *I can,* and you would be hard pressed to deny them because they easily correlate with the prohibitions in the court papers! Perry Belcher was a hard core scammer who ripped off consumers for YEARS. He didn't stop voluntarily - he only stopped AFTER he was caught. That is not a "changed" man.

    As for StomperNet's "health" - as Ryan pointed out, they admitted they were UNABLE to pay the commissions, period. Also, in Brad Fallon's lawsuit against his wife (which is public and entirely relevant), he indicates that he pulled out a MASSIVE amount of money from StoperNet to fund a totally unrelated business! Hundreds of thousands of dollars! Evidently, he decided HIS OWN INTERESTS took precedence over other bills, because certainly that money could have gone to affiliates or other creditors.

    Last year (according to Georgia court records available online), StomperNET was also sued by its fulfillment house.

    Many if not most of the original "key faculty" at Stomper are NO LONGER there and some even question if Stomper has a dedicated physical office of any kind.

    Does this sound like a healthy company that is going to last? (Of course not.)

    Sorry Nathan, but your view of reality does not mesh with actual reality, which is supported by sworn affidavits, lawsuits, and court documents which CANNOT be denied.
  • Bill - Thank you for commenting, and thank you for the compliment.

    Personally, I think the legal documents are some of the most valuable stuff you can peruse. I'm glad you brought that up.
  • Hi Nathan - I don't have Perry's products so I can't comment on them one way or the other. I have seen his Selmedica sales letters and they are clearly fraudulent.

    I'm pretty sure Andy is not okay with Brad. And vice versa. But I could be wrong.

    What "blanket statements" are you referring to?
  • Well for starters, you're mixing Perry's past and present as if they're one and the same. You are making it sound as if his stuff with Ryan is a scam, and in the process throwing Ryan under the bus too.

    You are also clearly labeling Stompernet as a failing business, which it is not. Who knows what happened behind the scenes with those guys, but I know I always got my checks from them.

    Lastly, the Droid clearly has an axe to grind, and although I appreciate the intent, getting into someone's married life is out of bounds. Again, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

    Your message is good, but I think you blended the facts a bit too much in order to make it.
  • Nathan - Thanks for the response.

    I actually don't know whether StomperNet is failing or not -- but they did send out a public email asking affiliates to promote their second launch so they could pay for the first launch. Kind of implies a cash flow problem.

    As far as Perry goes, he was violating the terms of his probation. That's his recent past. It just is what it is.

    When you sue your own wife, I think that's public record -- so how is that out of bounds? Or what about Tiger Woods? Off limits?

    My thinking: If you're famous, it's hard to be private. That goes for anybody who's stepped into the limelight.
  • I'm saying we don't know how it has anything to do with his business.

    People don't question Tiger's golf game because he cheated, the same should be true of Fallon with whatever cause they have for divorce.

    Also, who hasn't had a cash flow problem at some point? I dont' think that's the same thing as being "dead."

    As far as Perry goes, frankly I don't care about the terms of his probation as long as he isn't scamming people. His product, Get Money from Google, was one of the best courses I've ever underpaid for.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm typically the last guy you'll see defending these guys, but I think you are painting things in black and white when it isn't that simple.

    I'm not trying to take pot shots at you, just saying that sometimes, when trying to tidy up a post to make a point, the facts get misconstrued a bit.
  • Stephan
    "..don't care about the terms of his probation"

    No doubt if your sick relative had paid for Perry's fake medicine, you WOULD care about the terms of his probation.

    You ridiculously self-serving child. So long as his product helps YOU, who cares whether he's ripped off other people. Who cares about punishing him for that? (And incidentally, probation was a mild punishment for computer fraud anyway)

    We are all very lucky - VERY - that you are not in any kind of position of power or responsibility. You are obviously unfit to make mature judgements on issues like this. Try looking beyond yourself for a change.
  • I'm talking about the current stuff, not the health products. I don't agree with him doing that at all, but I don't have those products, nor the diseases, so I can't comment.

    It's easy to hide behind a guest login and make silly comments and resort to name calling. I just try to see both sides of the story and sometimes, it's not always black and white.

    Also, before making blind judgments about someone's character, consider learning more about that person before you do so. If you've read my bio, you might have a different opinion.

    Sorry Ryan, I meant to engage in conversation here, not to get into heated debate and steal the comments. I do appreciate your measured responses, maybe we can talk about this some other time :)
  • Stephan
    I know to which products you were referring - my point was simply that it is irrelevant whether he knows how to get money from google or not. He was on probation. There are many intelligent criminals in prison who know a great deal that any of us could learn from but we don't demand their teachings! Because probation and punishment do matter. When you gross $50m, or whatever it was, selling fake medicine, no doubt you are qualified to teach people how to sell things - but it doesn't mean that it's right that you should. Perry avoided jail by doing a deal - agreeing not to sell information products online was part of that deal.

    The product may have worked for you - that's great if it did - but within the big picture you have to ask: Should he have been selling it? Is it OK that he flaunted a fair/leniant punishment and profited from his 'success story' of having ripped people off? Should he have included the Selmedica figures in his sales pitches? (i.e. claiming to have sold $50m+ as an online marketer)

    I'm also trying to see both sides of the story here - I've read a great deal of information from Perry - but I find it hard to escape the conclusion that he was willfully violating his parole, and using the sales of a fraudulent and harmful enterprise as proof of his success in marketing.

    It is for this reason that I wouldn't spend my money with him - and why I can't understand your cavalier attitude to his parole terms and past life. (Hence my somewhat adversarial comments, which have obviously muddied the waters around what I was trying to say)

    I don't have the diseases or products either, but do either of us need to be the victim of a criminal to understand that they've committed a crime? (And that their punishment ought to be enforced?) You have to admit that's a worrying proposition.
  • It is tricky, and I'm not saying I have an answer, but is he supposed to go work at McDonald's?

    Should Michael Vick be playing football? Does a man have a right to earn a living? I don't know, but I'm far less skeptical of marketers than most, and I believe a customer needs to do their research before buying something.

    And if he really was violating the terms of his probation, why did the FTC not pursue further action?

    I'm just not a fan of scapegoating and attacking in the manner of the Salty.
  • Bill
    "Scapegoating?" What a curious, non-substantive defense of Perry Belcher you have, contrary to a mountain of irrefutable facts that show him to be a very bad apple over a period of many years.

    A "scapegoat" is someone who takes the blame for others. That implies that Perry Belcher was the unfortunate victim of circumstance, which he was not. To say that is to insult all the real victims who had serious medical conditions and who relied on Belcher's fraudulent, worthless pills.

    It sounds like you are simply digging in your heels (or burying your head in the sand). Why the passionate support (beyond reason) for felon Perry Belcher? There must be some reason beyond logic, because you have yet to present anything that explains away his years of criminal activity, his victims, his conviction, and the "misrepresentations" he continued to make while selling his "social media" rehash "products" through the willing aid of Ryan Dei$$.

    You asked if Perry Belcher is supposed to work at McDonald's. The answer is: that's his problem. He made his bed. He was a blatant crook for YEARS. He didn't make a simple mistake. He was a long-time, intentional criminal. He stopped only after his arrest. That's a huge distinction.

    You also asked "if he was violating the terms of his probation, why did the FTC not pursue further action?" Actually, it would be the courts, and not the FTC in such a case, although the FTC could have an interest in any fraudulent marketing as well. Your implication is that because he has yet to be hauled back into court and sent to prison, that he must not have done anything wrong. However, sometimes criminals are simply not caught. Just because a criminal is not caught or prosecuted does not make them any less guilty.

    Stephan's assessment above is entirely correct and your repeated "affinity" for felon Belcher still doesn't change the reality compass.
  • Bill, I'd love to talk more about this, but not here, as I feel this has gone beyond the scope of the post and I'm not interested in abusing Ryan's blog. I'm registered on Disqus, come and find me if you want to talk more. I'm easy to reach.

    Nathan
  • Ryan,

    Thanks for another great post and one that's essential reading for anyone involved in online marketing. The info on merchant accounts is particularly valuable.

    Good advice on how to select who to listen to. Unfortunately, in many cases it's only after hard won experience that you really discover the truth about who is on the level. This post and further reading at "Salty Droid" has really opened up a can of worms. Confirmed a lot of my suspicions and raised a few questions about some other high profile individuals.

    Rick Butts makes some excellent points about the psychology that enables these guys to operate.
  • Sometimes experience is the best teacher. I just got off the phone with Rick -- will be seeing him later this week. He's one smart dude. Thanks for the comment, Kevin!
  • remarkablogger
    Wow, I had no idea about any of this stuff except for some of what happened with Perry Belcher. Consider a post that rounds up a list of the "good guys," too.
  • "Consider a post that rounds up a list of the good guys, too."

    That is something I am thinking about and may be a good follow-up post to this one. Thanks for commenting!
  • "Consider a post that rounds up a list of the good guys, too."

    That's a good idea.

    They're out there. I know a few.

    If I named names, you'd probably be shocked how few there are. Most of the guys you know would NOT be on that "good guy" list.

    A couple years ago, after meeting some of these big name IM gurus, I realized I've had more real world "in the trenches" direct response business experience than most of them.

    I've always made my money running a REAL direct response business selling REAL products to real people... in a REAL market (NOT the make money market).

    Most of the IM gurus can't claim that. They might have made a couple grand a month selling products to a REAL market... but they started making the big bucks when they entered the make money market.

    So I started my blog to share all the marketing/copywriting stuff I learned working with Gary Halbert... and from 15 years of running successful direct response/online businesses.

    After I started getting some really positive response about the content on my blog, I thought maybe I should sell products teaching what I know and make a little money at it. After all, unlike many of the "gurus" I know... I run REAL businesses with tried and true direct response principles. Not black hat temporary "trick Google" schemes that a lot of them sell.

    What kept me from selling marketing products was the thought that I'd automatically be associated with the "gaggle of gurus"... and that's the LAST thing I want.

    So I give it all away free on my blog and continue to make my money running REAL businesses.

    I once asked Gary Halbert, "Since you know so much about making money, why don't you do it yourself instead of having other people pay you to teach them how to do it?"

    He replied, "Because it's a helluva lot easier TELLING other people what to do than actually doing it yourself."

    Nuff said.

    Best,
    Doberman Dan
  • Ryan...

    Great piece... exactly the kind of stuff I've been railing on for a very long time (that's why I have the moniker of the "Angry Marketer")... it's time to expose the cockroaches to the light -- enough is enough...

    What makes me chuckle though are marketers who also take on the "mantle" of exposing the scumbags but who are themselves in bed with some of the very same scumbags -- they speak at their seminars, promote their products and are still quite chummy with them... before you throw that rock look at your glass house first... I dismissed their declarations and outrage because when you know where both the skeletons & fleas are hidden it becomes an outrageous farce, a comedy of errors.

    Keep up the good work... this market is and will be cleaned up... you can make money and help others honestly without abusing those with dreams (whether they act on them or not)... I have promoted honest, upfront marketing for a long time... now is the time to adopt that for your own... trust me, you'll profit handsomely from it in many, many ways...
  • Well hello there Mr. "Angry Marketer"

    I've gotten the title "Little Miss Firecracker" myself. LOL
  • Thanks for commenting, Tony. And as a previous commenter pointed out (Dan Sherman), people in this community are so interconnected that it's hard to really pin down who's who, good guys, bad guys, etc.

    An interesting/hard question is: Who are the "good guys" and who are the "bad guys"? How is that question answered?

    Anyway, something I've been thinking about today. Thanks again for commenting!
  • coldcalling
    I would love to see a neutral third-party organization that verifies the income claims of internet marketers. I'm so sick of seeing guru after self-proclaimed guru claiming to make tens of millions of dollars while living like paupers in real life.
  • Or claiming to make $1 million when they only GROSSED a million -- and have to pay out half to affiliates, subtract merchant fees, product costs, etc.

    Most "million dollar launches" probably net about $300,000 after hard costs are deducted. And it may even be less than that since most people offer payment plans -- and not all payments are collected.

    So $1 million BILLED may only mean $600,000 COLLECTED. Then start subtracting out costs, etc, and the net profit could be much lower than advertised.
  • John
    Take out taxes and they've REALLY NETTED $150,000 -- then when you buy a Ferrari "for show"... The cash is GONE. Oh that means: TIME FOR A NEW LAUNCH!

    John
  • I've never been a fan of marketing "gurus"--especially in the "info marketing" world. They've always rubbed me wrong.

    And while I still get some stuff, there's almost always at least something that makes me say, "That's sleazy and down right wrong!" I'll give you a "for instance": one of the names you mentioned above consistently encourages people to add a "live chat" button to their website even if they don't have a customer support team to handle it. They say that it increases perceived support and the people could leave a message if they want.

    Yeah: Lame. Unethical. Lame.

    I am not a fan.

    ~Luke
  • Or how about exit pops that offer a lower price? That's always bugged me because I think, "You mean, I almost paid a higher price for this product??" Kind of angering when you think about it.

    Thanks for the comment, Luke!
  • Oh, I couldn't agree with you more, Ryan. This one has bugged me since the first time I saw it. It's very simply, both deceptive AND stupid, all at the same time.

    It teaches people not to buy the first time, close their browser, and hope for a better deal.

    But most importantly...It also teaches people that the seller is not a person of honor, and when the site owner says "Buy it for __X__" they actually mean... "only the first suckers pay full price, and I'm desperate for money"

    Ridiculous idea, taught by people who don't have the right to call themselves "teachers"
  • John Thomas
    I've actually started exiting sites when the sales page pops up to see if they offer me a discount, then I evaluate whether it's worth it to me at the discounted price.

    Yeah, I'm cheap, I admit it... :-)
  • Interesting post.

    I think the key here is relationship marketing. It is about being real, being transparent, and not BSing people. It is the only way to survive in this business. Those who will do anything to get conversion up a tiny percentage are ultimately shooting themselves in the foot.
  • "It is about being real, being transparent, and not BSing people."

    Exactly :: and just as a for instance :: don't call yourself the "six figure blogger."

    Hey David :: remember when you belligerently defended Perry Belcher to me even though you already knew the facts? I never forget things like that. Just so you know.
  • Just remember that at no point is a person's conviction in their own beliefs stronger than when those beliefs have been proven false. In studying cults, I saw that most of the big ones didn't hit their tipping point until the members had to deal with that. Their response seemed to be that if they made enough other people believe, then it would really be true.

    So be sure to distinguish between the deceived and the deceivers.

    Then nail those mofos to the wall.
  • Good point, David. Staying power comes from building a genuine relationship and always doing what's best for your customers -- not necessarily what's best for your bank account that month.
  • Thanks for being so upfront, Ryan. It's much appreciated!
  • You're welcome, Michael! :-)
  • pezzella
    Keep rockin' it Ryan:

    2010 is the year of transparency for the Internet Marketing Oligarch crew as well. I quote myself from this article:

    "I hope you enjoyed this article as we end 2009. As we approach 2010, I anticipate less launches from Jeff Walker. He’s either going to have to come up with a supplementary product for PLF or run another intensive 5 day live Product Launch Manager workshop. I have a feeling that his pool of new clients is either drying up or his current list of non buyers is getting sick of being sold the same thing via PLF. His JV buddies like John Carlton, Jeff Johnson, Eben Pagan, Frank Kern, etc. are also going to have to spice things up and either massively recruit new followers or try to sell new products to their lists in 2010. You can only promote and sell the same product within the same circle of JV friends so long until it becomes saturated. There are only so many bonuses and huge promises that you can bundle together to make people buy.

    I think 2010 is going to demand simpler and less involved products. Courses, systems and books that are easily digestible, extremely powerful, and very practical that don’t need 3 months to finish will become available. Other “up and coming” celebrities are going to enter the Internet and Info Marketing Scene. They are going to make small promises. They are going to be brutally honest and upfront with what they can teach. Their crowds and following are going to be smaller but consist of ferociously passionate people. Claims of making a billion gazillion dollars from this launch or that are going to become less frequent. After the near collapse of the U.S. and global banking system in 2009, I think people are going to place more emphasis on products that help people achieve simpler lifestyles and actually make less money. One thing these guys never tell you is that the U.S. dollar is shit. Thanks to the Federal Reserve and “Money Masters” of the world we are living in a world where you need more dollars then ever to buy stuff. People are waking up and will place much more emphasis on direct response marketing systems (online and offline) that get the lifestyle they want even if it means making less money."

    Here's a link to the entire article: http://ow.ly/XTOZ

    Thanks for having the courage to share this stuff. We may be the minority right now but our message for transparency and numbers are growing.

    Rock on my friend.

    Jeff
  • "People are waking up and will place much more emphasis on direct response marketing systems (online and offline) that get the lifestyle they want even if it means making less money."


    I really think that's what most are after. And they really are waking up.
  • Excellent comment, Jeff. Thanks for sharing your perspective. The year 2010 may be the year when the "little guy" finally gets his break.
  • johnritz
    Good article, Ryan.

    Sometimes it is difficult to separate the honest folks from the predators and scammers out there, and unfortunately many innocent people can get caught in the crossfire.

    Some good advice you provided in dealing with this mess. I would also add that, given enough exposure and due diligence, you can usually tell when someone really wants to help you--when your success is their success--and when someone is out for a quick buck at your expense.

    Keep up the good work!

    John
  • Thanks, John! One thing I've noticed is that "due diligence" is often thrown out the window when there is so much perceived "social proof" surrounding a particular person or product.

    The key is to do your due diligence anyway, even if your emotions are telling you everything is okay.
  • Ryan,

    Usually when people write a post like this, they're too chicken (*cough* Michel and Sylvie *cough*) to NAME NAMES.

    So even though you were just recapping what other's had said and putting it all into once post, I still commend you for naming some freakin' names.

    I think it was Ben Settle who wrote for Ken McCarthy that there are some true sociopaths in the IM niche... it would be interesting to know whether Ken was referring to something he knew about Mr. Apple Pie & Baseball, Brad Fallon... or anyone else in IM.

    Now that's a post I'd love to see... a list of all known or suspected sociopaths in Internet Marketing (sociopath is defined as someone without any conscience)
  • Greg (and Ryan)

    As you know, Michel and I are not what you'd call "chickens" and I, for one, was surprised to be labeled this way, simply because the report was focused on recognizing the SIN, instead of people-bashing.

    If I had named names, the focus would have excluded others who I may not have known about, those who only arrived at "guru" status after the report came out.

    Would you have preferred I have to go back and edit repeatedly, to keep adding new names?

    Would it have been better if a consumer (the main focus of the report is for consumers to protect themselves) to read the list of names and think "well, my favorite guru isn't on the list, so he/she must be a great person"?

    I'm a big fan of not handing out fish, but teaching people how to fish for themselves. Handing out the fish (names) can easily lull people into a false sense of security, which is the exact opposite of what I was trying to do.

    But, after all is said and done, if the worst thing anyone can say about me is that I published a scathing report about bad marketing principles, and didn't point to specific people as an example, then I'm fine with that.
  • As I just replied to Michel, I don't think you are "chickens" at all, and I understand and respect why you wrote your report the way you did.

    Thanks for commenting, Sylvie, and sharing your perspective. :-)
  • I agree that naming names works well. Shaming people publicly has always been a productive technique to quench people's appetite for blood. As the saying goes, "If it bleeds, it reads."

    Plus, I also agree that it can be potentially productive in stopping that one person (and maybe a few others who fear the same humiliating fate) when names are mentioned. (And I did say "potentially," because the cult-like status these guys enjoy, which in some cases are deeply entrenched.)

    If that's your goal, fine. But it wasn't ours.

    We weren't looking for fans. We were looking to help. We don't want to be judges, lest we be judged ourselves. That's why our goal was to focus on the consumer. On the victims. And the would-be victims.

    Plus, we wanted to avoid the whole "any publicity is good publicity" some of these cult leaders enjoy. We wanted to alert consumers on what's going on and educate them on how to avoid pitfalls by shining a light on the sin, not the sinner.

    The unfortunate thing about naming names is, because of the cult-like stigma some of these "sinners" create (and enjoy), if one person is named, then others perpetrating the same "sin" is seen as exonerated by omission by their followers.

    Are we against naming names? Not at all. But again, it wasn't our goal. And yes, we got a lot of flak for that.

    But the bottom line is, we simply preferred to show people how to avoid potential pitfalls and even go so far as to suggest actionable solutions, instead of giving anyone any kind of publicity they most certainly don't deserve.

    We wanted to extend a helping hand rather than point any fingers, much less wag them.
  • I have to at least partially agree with you here Michel (and I imagine Sylvie is reading this too)...

    It's that old saying "Don't focus on the person, focus on the behavior." To me, it doesn't really matter "who's" doing it, they will meet their maker eventually for their sins (pun intended for Michel and Sylvie LOL).

    All that really matters is that as a community, we do the best that we can to correct the bad behaviors that are negatively affecting our industry...and quite frankly, giving it a bad name in many mainstream circles.

    But that doesn't detract from Ryan naming names either...it takes "gumption" like that (when it's factually based and properly stated) to start and/or help along the process of correcting the bad behaviors.
  • If you re-read my comment, I did say naming names is fine. It just wasn't our goal, and why *we* didn't. It's a personal preference.
  • Oh, I read your comment, I guess I "read into"/mis-read the context you surrounded "naming names is fine" with too far Michel... for that, I misunderstood. I fully understand and can see your point of view now, my mistake. ;)
  • By the way, I definitely do NOT think you and Sylvie are "chickens" -- I see you as leaders who are trying to make a positive impact.

    Thanks for providing some insight into your thinking, Michel.
  • Greg,

    Ken did that teaching in his "Advanced Copywriting For Serious Info Marketers" course (www.KensCopyClinic.com -- not an affiliate link), which was done in early 2005, and does not name names either. Instead, it tells you exactly how to identify if someone is a sociopath based on what psychologists know about the condition.

    It's pretty freaky stuff, and explains why sociopaths are attracted to direct marketing, politics, sales, law, etc. (wherever persuasion skills take one to "rock star" status).

    He told me the entire room went cold when he was teaching it.

    I doubt you'll find many goo-roos promoting his course as an affiliate ;-)

    Ben
  • Duff_McDuffee
    "sociopaths are attracted to direct marketing, politics, sales, law, etc. (wherever persuasion skills take one to "rock star" status)"

    Also spirituality--note James Arthur Ray's recent headline news.
  • Hearing you describe it makes me wish I had been there. :-)

    Of all the people online, Ken McCarthy probably has more stories to tell than anybody else. The "gurus" are lucky he keeps it to himself.
  • Greg - I feel like the only real way to force change is to name names. Until somebody does that, everybody else stays silent out of fear.
  • carlon
    You're 100% right, Ryan. It takes courage and conviction to name names.
  • Ryan - thanks for posting this!
  • bevlowry
    Ryan, as a newbie to Internet marketing I became overwhelmed trying to sort out which newsletters and products were really going to help me achieve my goals. It was hard to figure out the real value of the deals (especially those that are cross-promoted) to more fledgling start-up. My solution for the New Year has been to unsubscribe to all but a select handful of newsletters/blogs. Yours is a definitely a keeper because as a reader for quite some time, I realized that you're not afraid to speak the truth about these issues. Thanks for a post that confirmed I'm on the right path.
  • owenrjohnson
    Bev, I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. As a newbie to online "info marketing" (but not to marketing on the Internet) I went through the same thing. While the claims of quick riches were oh so enticing, after buying a couple of those programs and getting cross-sell emails - affiliate offers - from all the gurus whose lists I had signed up for, it dawned on me that it was mostly a bunch of crap. Trick, deceive and rip off the public is the common MO. And really, all most of them are doing is promoting each other's garbage.

    I wrote a short piece in a blog with my feelings on it: http://1950marketing.com/blog/7/marketing-with-...
  • I'm honored that I'm on your "keeper" list. Thanks, Bev!
  • Ryan. You can well imagine how much I am doing a dance of joy right about now. :)

    When I published the Internet Marketing Sins report, I wasn't surprised when so few "big names" supported it. I was astonished though, how many people outright argued with me, whenever they had the chance, about what I was saying.

    Now, Visa/Mastercard have stepped up to the plate and hit where it hurts the most...the merchant's wallet, and I am so thrilled!

    Now, perhaps they will finally LISTEN to what their customers have been saying for so many years.

    Vindication is sweet, sayeth Sylvie. :)
  • I'd like to see that dance, Sylvie! :-)
  • andycatsimanes
    Ryan, you're no doubt going to get some blowback from this, but you've done a service to the entire marketing community.
  • I suspect as much. Thanks for the support, Andy. :-)
  • Thanks Ryan. I commend you for speaking of the elephant in the room. I already knew about all of this, wrote about Perry twice and got the powerpay email as well. In basketball terms a players ability to slam dunk will never outweigh the fundamentals. Ask Shaq who is a poor free throw shooter.

    Time reveals all. Me you everyone reading this.
    It's like bullshit: sooner or later you will know it's there.
  • Time reveals all -- and all things concealed in darkness are eventually exposed to light. Great point, Darren.
  • Ryan, this is a devastating article - well researched - you got your facts straight - and have produced a brilliant analysis of the first real stumbling of the predatory "guru-class" yet.

    I've been howling about these folks and their practices for 2 years - and while I've had some support among intelligent and common sense thinkers, for the most part I've been regarded as a pariah for mentioning that the emperor has no clothes on.

    The nearly religious ferver with which far too many people deeply want to believe in a group of self-generated experts is not to be underestimated - just witness the cash they've garnered.

    They've also been helped along by 2nd tier gurus who so desperately want to be gurus and relentlessly continue to preach the guru gospel and faithfully haul their junk out to flea market at each launch. This group has done as much if not more (and there are a lot of them - see 'em at every live event) to keep the momentum and false hope alive.

    The fundamental break point for the guru-class is that they primarily teach tactics and strategies about how to make money selling how to make money stuff - the continous fleecing of the flock who cannot come up with something new and can't crach the guru-class email list thing has kept them from learning legitimate marketing to a legitimate customer.

    The biz-0p world has always been so. (Just look at the nauseating resurgence of MLM in a down economy - the lie has been reincarnated online. While the whole world has been "eliminating the middle-man" MLM has figured out a way to add 7 people!

    The move toward creating a real business - you know - one that actually adds value - and does it without horrific Jeff Walker Projectile Product Launch ripoffs - will continue.

    But, I believe the beasts - especially 2nd tier guru-wanabes - will go down screaming. It ain't over yet.
  • Mary
    In my opinion you're a ____ with a capital _. Lynn Terry has done more to help people than a ____ like you would ever know. She gives away more than most "gurus" sell. You are a _______ with a very huge chip on your shoulder.
  • Mary,

    You must not have seen my previous comment. There has been enough mud-slinging. Please refrain from making comments like these. They are not helpful in the least. Thanks.

    Ryan

    P.S. I have edited your comment.
  • KonaGirl
    Opinions are just like assholes, everybody has at least one. I for one like Lynn a lot. She has always been upright and honest with me and I've known her for several years.
  • Goodness me, Rick. That's quite a bellyful of bile you just vomited there.

    That's the risk, of course, when you shove your head that far up your fundamental orifice.

    Suggestion: if you insist on doing that bizarre trick, at least don't inhale so deeply.
  • John,

    While I appreciate the comment, there has been enough mud-slinging. Please refrain from making comments like these. Thanks.

    Ryan
  • dhudiburg
    Rick, while I agree with the overall sentiment of your comment, and totally agree with Ryan, I find myself wondering why you chose to specifically name Lynn Terry.

    I've followed Lynn for quite some time and consider her to be quite the opposite of a 'guru' wannabe. She has never appeared to want to be anything but Lynn Terry, who, by the way, was one of the people who took the StomperNet people to task for their failure to resolve the problems they had with their newsletter launch.
  • I too have followed Lynn for quite some time and reel at the notion that she has ever acted in any way like: "desperately want to be gurus and relentlessly continue to preach the guru gospel and faithfully haul their junk out to flea market at each launch."

    This assessment of Lynn lacks the facts.

    Like Ryan's pronouncement that: "Event #2: Eric Graham Fails to Deliver," we now see that maybe a personal contact with Eric would have gleaned the full and true facts.

    The same holds true of Rick Butt's derogatory pronouncement against Lynn Terry.

    Get your facts straight boys - or you simply become part of the problem.
  • Bill
    Exactly what do you mean by: "we now see that maybe a personal contact with Eric would have gleaned the full and true facts."

    I think most would beg to differ! I think what we've seen here shows that the full and true facts were gleaned. Ryan did a fine job of ferreting out the truth.

    As for Lynn Terry, I noticed that she posted on her blog that she intended to send Rick Butts' comments to her "lawyer." I wasn't even familiar with her until I read about her here, but I certainly wouldn't consider following her after reading that little snarly remark attached to a cumbersome, winded post. Knowing more than just a little about the first amendment, I don't consider anything Rick said even remotely actionable, and he is fully entitled to his opinion. Of course, various sheep of another mind are now starting to dribble in here, as directed...
  • lynnterry
    Hi Bill,

    It wasn't a snarly remark. If you read Ryan's post above you'll see that the new FTC regulations put a great deal of obligation on all of us to work in a mode of full transparency. It would be negligent of me to let an accusation of this magnitude go without proper address. Proactive measures are simply required to protect my brand and reputation in the current landscape.

    Being publicly named as someone who offers "false hope" is not something to take lightly given that is exactly what the FTC is attempting to crack down on.

    This is not a game for me, this is my business and my livelihood. I have been working online full-time for 13 years now, and support both of my children as a single mother.
  • Jerry Nielsen
    Ryan sys in his post, "And, possibly most important of all, you must protect your reputation. Because, in the end, your reputation is the most valuable asset you have."

    You are exactly right Ryan. Rick's comments about Lynn are a direct assault on her character and reputation. I'm sure he would disagree.H

    is implication is that she engages in the same unethical practices he claims to abhors and condemn. Doesn't he have the same obligation to speak truth as demands of those he accuses?
  • Jerry,

    I'm not sure if you're addressing me or Rick, but I've already apologized to Lynn by email, on her blog, and via Twitter today. I've also updated Rick's comment with a link back to Lynn's blog so that people can see her response immediately.

    As far as "speaking truth," there are facts and perceptions. Rick made a statement about his personal perceptions. He has a right to do that. Lynn has a right to defend herself.

    I've tried to correct the imbalance by linking to Lynn's blog. And I think it's clear from all the comments on her blog and mine that she has an excellent reputation. I've not seen or heard anything that would make me think otherwise.

    Ryan
  • Bill,

    1. Please read my reply to Ryan concerning my comment about Eric Graham.

    2. Lynn has the right to pursue any legal recourse she so desires - no matter what you or I, or a dozen other people may presume to know about the First Amendment.

    3. "as directed" eh? I come here of my own accord. I enjoy Ryan's blog. This "sheep" can think for himself.
  • Frank - Did you read my response to Eric's comment? Did you read Fred's response? Did you read what past customers have posted on Complaints Board?
  • While I still wish you would have talked beforehand with Eric Graham - I do now see the trail of problems and complaints against him. My error was in not doing what I posted here -not getting all the facts.

    Based on my experience with Lynn Terry over the last year, both on her website and her forum - I stand behind my comment regarding Rick Butts.
  • Doug - Thanks for bringing this up. I actually just got a private email from somebody who was upset about Lynn being named.

    I responded by saying, "So far, nobody has spoken up for Lynn Terry -- I don't know a whole lot about her, but she seems to be a good person."

    Anyway, I'm glad somebody who knows her better than I do said something. So thank you.

    Ryan
  • Joe
    Lynn Terry is pretty careful about who she associates with and researches potential new alliances carefully. I heard through the grapevine a couple years ago (maybe 3?) that Rick was trying to get her attention or whatever for some jv and she passed. Maybe she didn't feel comfortable associating herself with a guy who appointed himself as "the blog and ping king" back in 2004-2005 and was charging people horrendous monthly fees to "ping their blog" before google and blogspot pulled the rug out from under him and he had to make massive refunds. Since then, Rick's been taking potshots at her so I wouldn't give too much heed to what he says.
  • dhudiburg
    Hmmm. That could explain a thing or two.
  • KonaGirl
    Right on, Joe!
  • dhudiburg
    Thanks Ryan. Ed Dale calls her "The Ralph Nader" of Internet marketing, which I think is a fair description.
  • Thanks, Rick. Excellent observation about how the "2nd tier" keeps the good 'ole boys club alive. Thanks for the comment!
  • Wow, that's pretty insane stuff.. especially regarding StomperNet.

    I've bought stuff from Belcher and StomperNet and was happy with the products but I guess you never know what really goes on behind closed doors.

    Thanks for sharing Ryan,
    Dave
  • Chas
    I met Belcher at Yanik's conference when he did his "From China With Love" presentation. I joined his mastermind group and later was an affiliate for one of his products (not the Selmedica stuff). When he got closed down he still owed me about $1,000 in commissions. Multiple attempts to get paid go unanswered. Even getting affiliate checks each month before he was shut down was a pain - always late and you had to rattle their cage all the time. Rich Linder, who ran much of his operations, was in the middle of it with him.

    Too bad, too. There was a lot of potential there - but greed can cause a lot of problems.
  • The stuff going on between Jenkins and Fallon could be featured on the Jerry Springer Show -- and they wouldn't even have to act!
  • Whoa, some intense stuff going on in that industry.
  • Early last year after watching one over hyped launch after another, I left a post on a Clayton Makepeace article asking when it was going to come crashing down. That was before the rumors started flying around about questionable business practices. Looks like it is coming home to roost.

    Thanks for the update Ryan.

    John Deck
  • "Coming home to roost" -- indeed.
  • Of all the revelations in your post, the stuff I found the most shocking was the drastic changes to merchant account terms. A greedy few ruin very profitable (and perfectly ethical unless abused) tools like up-sells and cross-sells.

    People will always be treacherous. That does not surprise or disappoint me. What disappoints me is when the consequences of their actions ripple out far beyond those they touched directly. "A few bad apples ruin the bunch" might seem appropriate but many who will have to deal with these merchant account changes were not in that bunch. They weren't even in the same damn orchard.

    EDIT: I do find it frustrating when trying to vet "gurus" because they are so interconnected and cross promoted that they only ever seem to be three degrees of separation from a bad seed.
  • I share your frustration. It's very hard to separate individuals from the people they're intimately connected with.
  • --TW
    Hi Ryan -- great eye-opening article!

    What I'm wondering is, how big is the GAP between the hype and the reality? Something you said chilled me! Could the gap really be THIS big?!?...

    "I bought the first “Stomping the Search Engines” program, listened to it in my car, and used what I had learned to build a site that’s been cranking out $20 to $70 a month for more than five years now. The methods described in the program worked for me, so I thought highly of Brad..."

    My 'chill' comes from the mental gap between, "the methods worked for me," and, "a site that's been cranking out $20-$70 per month for 5 years now."

    I've never made a dime online -- but I've never tried, yet. I'm sure that site you have is only one of many income streams. But couldn't I just skip whatever work it takes to make a site like that, and just have a garage sale once a year? I mean $20-$70 a month is a 'success?'

    If so, the promises touted by gurus is MUCH MUCH MUCH further away from reality than(even) I thought!

    Can you (or someone) comment on this, please.

    Thanks!
  • TW - Thank you! And thanks for contributing here.

    As I mentioned in reply to another commenter, I chose a very broad "market" for my first web site: acronyms.

    I was trying to teach myself how to code in HTML and optimize it so it would rank well, too.

    Some months it has made $100+ dollars. Other months it has made $20 or $30. I'm not for sure because I actually don't track the site and don't do anything to it. I look at it maybe once a year to make sure it's still there.

    So: Let's say $50 a month on average for 5 years. That's $3,000 for 2 weeks' worth of waking up early and working on a web site before driving to my day job. Not bad.

    Making $50/mo is nothing to write home about... but it's just one of many different projects I've attempted.

    That said: Is the difference between promise and reality as big as this? In some cases, bigger. Most people who take "guru" courses never come anywhere close to achieving the promised results.

    Ryan
  • --TW
    Thanks Ryan!

    The reason I lurk/analyze endlessly, re: IMing, is exactly that.

    My mrktng 'instincts' (such as they are) latch on to things like, the gurus themselves often make their $$$ NOT via using the techniques they sell to others. Or when 'offline gold' consultants do not use online methods to get their own clients. Why is that? Because (I feel) there in a basic flaw in the IMing model (but that's a philosophical discussion for another day).

    Based on your article, I guess I must *increase* my already skepticism even more -- aka, looking into the mirror + saying "I TOLD YOU SO!!"

    Cheers.

    -- TW

    PS: I am in the process of finally jumping in -- and (hopefully) making $70 *a day!* (eventually). It remains to be seen if that will take a gargantuan effort which throws the roi over the $5/hour cliff.
  • The problem with the IM model is that the vast majority of people peddling "Make Money Online" products are exactly what you described. They make their money selling the how-to products, not using them.

    The biggest irony in this is that the people who have true knowledge of how to make money online do NOT charge for it. There are two reasons. First, 95% of what you need to know is so basic, there's no harm in giving it away for free, and many do on their blogs. Second, the other 5% is situational and to share that with you is to give up their niches and market research. In other words, to hand you the keys to their business with a license to steal it out from under them.

    For example, the Stompernet product Ryan mentioned was just repackaged from free information around the net. It just takes knowing where to look.

    Most paid products centered on affiliate marketing, traffic generation, and so on are repackaging information given away for free to those who know where to look. Or they take reasonably priced products made by reputable people and repackage them into those $xxxx.xx guru products. Ask Aaron Wall about that one. His SEO Book has been lifted nearly verbatim by shysters several times. Including, I think, by some mentioned in this very post.
  • -- TW
    Hi Dan...

    Thanks for clearing that up (apology). I'm in your "do no harm" camp (re: offline gold 'advice')!

    The flaw in the IMing game, as I see it, is the inability for the marketER to send the mrktng msg to whomever he/she pleases. The fatal flaw is the insistance on 'permission' mrktng. This reduces the marketer's power by 10-fold. The 'taget' in target mrktng refers to the potential customer, not the marketER! Much of IMing has this all backwards -- because the potential customer operates under the MISTAKEN notion that the initial spark that leads to the vast majority of transactions, emanates from the buyer, not the seller. That SHOULD be the case, but is not. Two words: end caps.

    Anyhow -- don't want to hijack the thread.

    On topic -- I truly question people like E.P. -- who make 30-60 mil per year on their ONE site (true???), then show up hawking something that MIGHT make them 1/12 of that, but which takes 100x more effort. Makes you wonder. OR the golden boy J.R. - who set the record for making 1-mil in a day -- err, did I say 1-mil -- I meant 500k (after paying affiliates) -- err, did I say in one day - I meant to say 5 years -- doing the networking needed to be in position for that "one day."

    The 12-month millionaire (who also spent time in jail), made his $$$ by purposely IGNORING the web as a mrkting conduit. I see a lot of wisdom in that, personally. As I say, everyone tries to put IMing at the top of the list, when often it should be at the bottom.

    It furthers the myth that one can ABDICATE oone's own mrktng *responsibility*

    It all depends on who we choose to glorify.

    I say be very, VERY careful about who you choose to glorify!

    -- TW
  • You've never made a dime online? Are you the same --TW who has participated on forums dedicated to "offline gold" style consulting selling internet marketing to small local businesses? Apparently one doesn't have to be a big name guru for the emperor to have no clothes.

    How does one sell something one has never successfully made work for themselves? I have had to clean up so many messes left behind by the rash of "offline gold consultants." Let me give you a big hint, if you aren't making money with it yourself, or have had experience doing it successfully internally or at an agency under supervision, please leave this activity to those who know what they're doing.
  • --TW
    Huh? Maybe you didn't see the "because I haven't tried" part. I've done plenty of marketing -- just no IMing, as such. I've kept away from it, for precisely the reasons I am questioning in my post here. The gap between what is promised (the glorification of IMing), and the actual results.

    When I say IMing, I do not mean 'offline'' stuff.

    I've been in 'gather/lurk' mode (re: IMing) for years. Something about it all didn't/doesn't sit right with me (mrktng instinct-wise). I think there's a huge gap between the glorification of it (gurus, etc.), and the actual results.

    What I'm doing here is asking Ryan if that gap is even wider than I suspect(ed). Is that alright with you, Dan?

    Ryan posted (in passing) some of his results he's been happy with. I'm just trying to get some clarification.
  • --TW
    @ Dan...

    PS: If you'd have (actually) read my posts in those forums, I often question the true effectiveness of "offline gold" type stuff (too). In many cases, *focusing* on online mrktng methods should be the last thing a small biz does, not the first (often they are not even doing the basics of traditional (offline) mrktng!).
  • --TW, I apologize. I ran my mouth before I checked my facts. That was out of line. I have had a lot of trouble with people who behave as I described above.

    I took at peek at those forums after seeing your reply and I'm glad to see another person questioning what these people are doing.

    I hope there are no hard feelings.
  • -- TW
    Dan -- just to emphasize that we are in the same camp -- my opinions + outspoken skepticism(s) in those other forums have (almost) gotten me booted off the island a few times!

    Cheers.

    -- TW
  • I actually started trying to chart the network of interconnections in a mind map and stopped because almost no one, from internet marketing gurus to mainstream "blog about blogging" bloggers, escaped being connected by only a few degrees to someone I would consider shady.

    It's almost to the point where the only experts I will allow myself to trust are the dead ones; Hopkins, Caples, Sackheim, Halbert, Ogilvy, etc. They're not around to try to vacuum my wallet clean with their "greased chute" back end funnel.

    The benefit of that, however, is one can have an amazing library of marketing knowledge for the same price as one of these over-hyped products being launched all the time. Which are, truth be told, mostly rehashes of rehashes of the old greats.

    I heard one modern day "goo-roo" say that what you're doing when you buy one of these $2000 product is paying them to read for you. I felt very proud at that moment of my love of reading, and that I had taken the time to learn who all the current gurus learned their craft from. No $2000 mistakes for me, so far. *knock on wood*
  • Renee Simao
    Another what I call scam are the marketers that offer you a 30 day trial but put in very fine print that your credit card will be charged monthly unless you cancel. I am a writer so I received a so called sizeable order conditioned on my joining EFAX for a month and the membership was supposed to be free. Once I joined, the client disappeared into cyberspace so I cancelled. Cancelling was a nightmare. Fortunately I had alerted my VISA holder which is also a credit union to not honor the charge and to make sure they did I transferred out my balance so the charge wouldn't clear. This is the only way I was able to handle this. That taught me a lesson so now I carefully read all the terms and conditions before I purchase anything especially a service. Renee PS And I still keep my file on the above
  • chrisinprague
    Dan, I TOTALLY agree with you that you can have have an amazing library of marketing knowledge for the same price as one of these over-hyped products being launched all the time if you find all about Hopkins, Caples, Sackheim, Halbert, Ogilvy, etc. I teach about them in my university marcoms course. Waht they wrote about then is still relevant today, only the technology changes, not human behaviour. The 'gurus', IF they have REALLY studied these guys are only rehashing BUT charging unreal amounts for it!
  • KonaGirl
    And getting away with it. Sheeple will be sheeple.
  • chrisinprague
    KonaGirl, I mainly blame the perpetrators NOT the victims. Sure, laziness and stupidity play an important part but, nevertheless, that's no excuse for unethical behaviour. A quick Google session will bring up plenty of free (or reasonably priced) valuable info. by the likes of Hopkins, Caples, Sackheim, Halbert, Ogilvy, etc. Alas, because most gurus won't make money that way they don't talk or write about them. Those that do are, often, the ethical ones!
  • KonaGirl
    Quite right. Just take a little time to research what you need and usually you will find what you are looking for. Too often people think they are willing to do the work on their own without a boss leaning over their shoulder, but when it comes right down to it, they really don't. They can not seem to function unless they have someone telling them what to do, how to do it and when to do it and then they want someone to do it for them. LOL.

    I downloaded a lot of Halbert's writings before he died and find myself referring back to them from time to time. Not only do they contain timeless knowledge, but they are most entertaining when I need an uplift.
  • chrisinprague
    Yes, KonaGirl, not only do Halbert's writings contain a vast amount of practical info. (that others charge thousands for) he is a very amusing writer. Anyone who recommends Gary's writings is, probably, OK!
  • Duff_McDuffee
    "It's almost to the point where the only experts I will allow myself to trust are the dead ones"

    Probably good advice for spiritual goo-roos too.
  • Spiritual goo-roos require a much older expired date. Anyone who has been stuck in a loop reading more and more modern day spiritual goo-roo goop should pick up Marcus Aurelius's meditations or "Letters from a Stoic" which is a collection of Seneca's writings. Tell me that those don't cover everything worthwhile the modern day bums teach and more without resorting to garbage like LGAT and I'll know you're a fool.
  • chrisinprague
    I'm a BIG Marcus Aurelius fan, but then I studied Ancient History before Marketing! 8-)
  • Here Here!! Especially when it comes to self help and personal development :: the deader the better.
  • bleep
    Heck, even Halbert had been in jail. (keep diggin and you'll see that even the dead ones were shady (not all, but some)
  • chrisinprague
    I'm a BIG Gary Halbert fan; Gary was always VERY open about his jail time. How many gurus publicise THEIR problems with the law?
  • John
    God Bless Gary -- but he ripped me off of $15,000 and he would joke to others about it.

    That was my experience... I'm not saying he was a bad man. He just did NOT deliver what he promised
  • The problem with blind accusations is there's no way to verify them. Ryan had overwhelming evidence, and merely presented facts. Others spoke up as well.

    Gary's not here to defend himself, and, for all we know, you could be one of the clients he deservingly vilified in his newsletters. See, when you go down this road, remember it's a two way street. I don't think Gary was a saint (how boring), but I don't think it's fair to pick on dead men.
  • chrisinprague
    John, sorry to read you were ripped off by John. He certainly wasn't always 'whiter than white' ethically but, as a copywriter at the very least he was one of the greatest practical marketers plus he put a vast amount of information into the public domain (on the WWW) which, if people take the time to study it will save people many many thousands of dollars on 'guru' courses!
  • I'm well aware of that fact. I'm not trying to declare anyone a saint. They're past being able to scam anyone now.
  • It's interesting that the "industry" is making so many changes...it has to be for SOME reason...but our "goo-roo" pals? Nah...I'll just keep forking over money on all those trial offers (LOL, sarcasm).
  • In that case, have I got the trial offer for you!! ;-)
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